Featured Romans 8:8

There you have it folks! A perfect example of textual ignorance, completely outside of context.

sbw has no clue that Isaiah is writing to the chosen people of God when he pens those words. Instead, sbw tries to force God to contradict Himself in a desperate attempt to teach the philosophy of free will.

Look at the text in Isaiah 55:1-9 and see its context. It seems that the context is completely lost on sbw.

“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you. “Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

How do the unsaved return to what they never knew? This passage is for the chosen, to whom Isaiah is writing.

 

Sorry Van, this cannot possibly be true. An unregenerated man is a sinner, meaning he is an unforgiven man, and cannot be placed into the body of Christ. The most comprehensive teaching on who is in Christ, that is in his body, is in 1 Cor 12. The work of all three members of the Godhead in forming this body are given in this chapter with the work of the Spirit covering the first 13 verses (and not being mentioned again in the chapter) culminating with the spiritual placing of the saved person, which he calls a baptism, an immersion, into the body, as a functioning member of that body.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body (present tense), whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been (past tense) all made to drink into one Spirit.

3824 παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia [pal-ing-ghen-es-ee’-ah]
from 3825 and 1078; n f; TDNT-1:686,117; [{See TDNT 156 }]
AV-regeneration 2; 2

1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
____________________-


The word "baptized" and the word "regeneration" not only do not mean the same thing, but they do not describe the same thing. Baptism into the body of Christ is what the Spirit does for the person he regenerates, or indwells. The Spirit entering into the body of a man who repents and believes the gospel is regeneration, making him a son of God, and the immersing by the Spirit into the body of Christ, that God is forming in this age, describes the subsequent and immediate act of the Spirit on behalf of that son. There is no cleansing action in 1 Corinthians 12 as there is in Titus 3:5, but there is a drinking action in 1 Corinthians because verse 12 says we have been made to drink into one Spirit.

Regeneration is the Spirit entering into the sinner when he believes, and baptism is the sinner with the Spirit being immersed into the body of Christ as a member of that body. This is so reasonable and logical and sensible that I do not know how it can be misunderstood.

No, you are not quite right about this Van. The washing away of sin that prepares the sinner to be a son is the "blood" of Christ. We have a statement of the Holy Ghost in Hebrews that declares, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." The scriptures says that Jesus Christ "hath appeared once in the end of the world (age) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." John the Baptist predicted this when he said at the appearance of Jesus Christ at the Jordan River, "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world." Titus says in 3:5 that we are saved by the "washing" of regeneration, and Re 1:5 says (if you have a KJV bible) ...."and from him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood." 1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Your order is wrong and you should be able to see that in 1 Cor 6:11 above. First the believer is washed. The believer is washed from his sin in the manner that is shown above. Then he is sanctified by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him, and he is justified, having no sin to condemn him, which is exactly what we are told in Romans 8 that we have been discussing. How? in the name of the Lord Jesus, We must personally receive him as our savior from sin by believing what God says about him through his eye witness apostles and prophets) who is in heaven now, and by the Spirit of our God, who is on the earth since Acts 2 and whose ministry in this age is to regenerate and give life, because he is life.

You are wrong again. This statement is in the context of keeping the law (which is holy and good) because those who were under the law as the operative principle of divine dealing did not have the power to keep it by their own will and strength. Therefore the holy and good law condemned them because they broke it.

Notice the conclusion of a Jew under the law in the previous chapter and who was laboring to keep the righteousness of it. Check this out.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Do you see that walking in the flesh is to continue to attempt to be made righteous in this context after the operative principle of divine dealing with Israel has now changed and Jesus Christ provides the righteousness that God has demanded as a gift to those who will receive him in the person of his Spirit. This was written in AD 58 and was 28 years after God had sent his Spirit, who this very chapter, Romans 8, says is his life and is his righteousness. A man with the Spirit living in his body cannot be condemned. Think.

I don't know what this statement even means. God's Spirit is God and he is life. If he is in us he is our life.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Van, our Lord Jesus Christ is wonderful and if we just believe his words we will be safe and will know his mind. God bless.

 

spiritual baptism into the body of Jesus Christ IS exactly the same as regeneration, as it takes place at the SAME time!

 

Nope. It's not quite that simple.... because it is much more a grammatical issue than a dictionary issue.

The Archangel

 

They are free to translate as they wish. Also, you're conflating two issues. You might argue that we need to understand "in...." as "with...." as far as meaning goes. However, you're not arguing that. You're arguing translation, which is a different issue. As far as the translation issue goes you are simply wrong.

The Archangel

 

It is a grammar issue, but as you will know, even with the so called "rules" in Greek grammar, there are always "exceptions".

from Samuel Green's Handbook on Greek Grammar of the NT.

 

you are not right yourself!

translation is based on the meaning of the words in question, and their usage in the context they are in.

There is no doubt that ἐν with dative can also mean WITH, this is very clear from Matthew 1:18, for example

πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου

Mary was found to be "WITH child", as most versions translate it; and not "IN child", though in this case the latter is true of its usage

 

Nope.

Sadly, all you seem to be able to do is post pages you found on Google books. ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα is an idiom meaning, literally, "to have in the womb." So... εν + dative here means "in," as in "in the womb." Of course, you wouldn't say "with the womb." You could say it means "with child" in this case (simply because you are translating the idiom itself). We could also say it means "pregnant." But the literal translation is "To have in the womb."

The Archangel

 

I don't know how you can say "nope", when many good translations, like the KJV, have WITH. you are trying to show what is not always the case!

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found WITH child of the Holy Ghost"

as I said in my previous post, "though in this case the latter is true of its usag", meaning IN

there are many examples that I have seen in the LXX, NT and classics, where εν + dative here means WITH, BY, etc.

As I said the context and usage is essential

 

so what is wrong with posting facts from anywhere? your resaoning on this and the Greek grammar is flawed! Evidence and usage is against you.

check this out

ἐν | billmounce.com

 

Thanks Van. Let me address Ephesians 2:5 and suggest you are misunderstanding the word "together" in that verse when you say it is the believer and Christ who are together in that verse.

First of all he is explaining how the body of Christ, of which he is the HEAD, is being formed. Look at what he says in Ephesians about this.

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all things to the church,
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

You will notice in verse 23 that a distinction is made between the head and the body. We must honor that distinction in our thoughts and it seems you have not done that with your statement here. [regeneration occurs within Christ. Where are we made alive? Ephesians 2:5, together with Christ]

Here is what Eph 2:5 says. - [Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)]

Let me interject a thought here that is often missed in these types of discussions and it is this. The NT was not written in June of 2022. It was written in the beginning of the church age by chosen eye witnesses of the resurrected Jesus Christ and in a time of great transition wrought by God in his dealing with his own people Israel and the gentiles. The epistles, especially those of Paul, are the explanation of the history that unfolded in those first years of the book of Acts, where God is viewing two people groups, Jew and gentile, and placing the believers into the body of Christ, the church that is a brand new thing on the earth after the eternal counsel of God.

The epistle to the Ephesians was written from a prison in Rome in 60 AD.God had been saving gentiles since 40 AD when he sent Peter to the Italian Cornelius and his family and for the first time OPENED THE DOOR OF FAITH to the gentiles and allowed gentiles to partake of the spiritual blessings of his promise to Israel of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, and a righteous relationship with him through the blood of Christ and faith in him.

Ac 14:27 And when they were come (to Jerusalem), and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their (the Jews) spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

The Jews in Jerusalem had first received the Spirit on one of their seven feast days, Pentecost, in 30 AD in the very beginning of the building of the church of Jesus Christ upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, whom he had given the Spirit in John 20 on the same day of his resurrection.

Ac 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift (the Holy Ghost to indwell them) as he did unto us (Israel), who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So, with this in mind we should take a fresh look at Eph 2:5. The word "us" in referring to those of both people groups that God knows about, Jew and gentile, and they are saved by Jesus Christ and placed together into the body when they become one with one another and with Christ, the head.

One must understand that the baptism of the Holy Ghost on gentiles is not placing them into the church and regenerating them, but it is pouring out the Spirit on the whole world in such abundance that each and all sinners may drink him in by believing in Jesus Christ, who died for the whole world and rose from the dead. That is the explanation given by Peter in Acts 11 when he addressed the Jews in Jerusalem about the event.

Ac 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This is my explanation of why I disagree with your take of regeneration taking place in the body of Christ rather than when the Spirit indwells the believer in Christ, albeit the placing of that believer into the body as an immediate sequence.

One more word about Jews and gentiles "together" in the body of Christ.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (Jew and gentile in context) together with Christ, (by grace ye [gentiles] are saved
6 And hath raised us (Jews and gentiles) up together, and made us (Jews and gentiles) sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye (gentiles) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



The principle under which the Jews were saved was by promise. God had promised in the OT to give them the Holy Ghost and salvation. He had never made any promise to gentiles and so the gentiles were saved by the principle of the grace of God.

We can thank God for that.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

There is quite the difference between using a source and posting a source. Posting a source--as you have done here--is putting forward information that you simply don't understand or know how to use. Citing a source means that you've made an argument for something and have used selected and specific information to demonstrate that your argument is correct.

All you've done is posted a source. And, I'd imagine, you've done so because you've never worked the Greek yourself and, as a result, you're stabbing in the dark.

The Archangel

 

It seems you didn't read my post. In the Matthew passage you posted, you cited an idiom. The translations of the idiom (which is not done literally, because it's an idiom) could be "with child" or "pregnant." The usage of εν in the case of the Matthew passage is a red herring to your point.

The Archangel