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Does the Bible allow Christians to defend themselves with lethal force?

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by canadyjd, Jun 6, 2022.

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Does the Bible allow Christians to defend themselves with lethal force?

  1. Yes, always

    7 vote(s)
    53.8%

  2. No, never

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%

  3. Not in cases of religious persecution

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%

  4. Unsure

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Must make a distinction between suffering for the cause and sake of jesus and suffering due to acts of evil and wicked persons directed against you not due to being a Christian !
     
    #61 JesusFan, Jun 7, 2022
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  2. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    I would suggest if self defense over concession to die passive were not a question, this thread would not exist nor have a ccryed these many pages.

    The Hebrews were not passive in the OT. Not did God command it of them.

    There are Christian soldiers serving in the military of different countries all over the world.

    One cannot claim those soldiers are not of the faith for serving to protect and defend their country and their people.

    The wars waged by Christians through history are evidence blanket passivity is a question. And is answered for over 2000 years.

    We do not need to die on our knees for sovereign God's covenant to remain valid.

    That the Disciples had two swords is evidence Jesus command was followed by two Apostles.

    Though he instructed all of his Apostles to buy one.

    There were two at first. To obey Jesus fully there would certainly be more later. Having two at that time was enough given the timeline of the Gethsemane encounter.

    That there were two at all belies any argument Jesus was against arms. And the OT is fully proof that could never be.

    What seems to be the point of yourself and some others here is to insist if a Christian is not unarmed and wholly passive, they are not in Christ. Or following his teachings. Implied so to be inferred by the reader rather than stated outright.
     
    #62 BasketFinch, Jun 7, 2022
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Will you address the many passages of scripture where Christians are taught to passively endure persecution for the cause of Christ?

    Whether Christians could serve as solders has been debated since the first century. The early church appears to have accepted the teaching that persecution for the cause of Christ was expected and should be endured passively as Jesus and His disciples did.

    The very fact there is no record of any of the Apostles or early disciples taking up “swords” against persecution undermines your contention that Jesus commanded them to do so. In fact, the whole of the writings of the Apostles (and Luke) speak to the opposite conclusion.

    When the Church in Rome consolidated power with the help of the Roman Army about the 4th century, they immediately began persecuted Christians that disagreed with them to the death.

    The “crusades” were misguided butchery based on the promise of plenary indulgences.

    The early church understood and practiced non violence toward those that persecuted them as sharing in the sufferings of Christ.

    peace to you
     
    #63 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Examples
     
    #64 SavedByGrace, Jun 7, 2022
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I do, when my family is involved.

    peace to you
     
    #65 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    When God gives a command, we obey. Has God commanded individuals in the body of Christ to pick up arms and fight their neighbors? I await the biblical evidence.
     
    #66 AustinC, Jun 7, 2022
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  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    He has given biblical support for his position. If you take the time to read the posts, he won’t have to repeat himself.

    peace to you
     
    #67 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  8. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    This has zero to do with discouraging self defense.
     
    #68 5 point Gillinist, Jun 7, 2022
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  9. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    #69 5 point Gillinist, Jun 7, 2022
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  10. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    I have, with regard to your first question. God does not change. He wasn't passive in the OT nor did he advocate that for his elect.
    That doesn't change. Because God doesn't.
     
    #70 BasketFinch, Jun 7, 2022
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    We don’t live under OT law.

    Jesus said in Luke 6:29 “if someone takes your cloak, give him your coat as well.”

    Nothing about killing the thief, but rather enduring the mistreatment passively.

    peace to you
     
    #71 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  12. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    Non sequitur.
     
    #72 BasketFinch, Jun 7, 2022
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sell your cloak and buy a sword.
     
    #73 atpollard, Jun 7, 2022
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Are you claiming Jesus did not passively allow Himself to suffer and die? Did He take up a sword and fight back? Did the Apostles passively allow themselves to be martyred?

    peace to you
     
    #74 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  15. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    LOL. So I guess rape and murder are ok then? Please elaborate as to how this is not relevant to modern days.
     
    #75 5 point Gillinist, Jun 7, 2022
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    That has been addressed.

    The context of the statement was to warn the Apostles of the coming danger with regard to spreading the gospel.

    When the disciples stated they had two swords, Jesus said “that is enough”.

    Either He meant that was enough of that kind of talk or He meant they only needed two swords for the 12 disciples and all others following Him. I believe the first is true.

    There is no record after the resurrection of Jesus that any of His disciples “took up the sword”, in fact the opposite is true. All of the Apostles were passively martyred.

    The early church clearly believed Christ had commanded them to endure persecution passively and followed the example of our Lord and His Apostles.

    peace to you
     
    #76 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Strange you would “LOL” in the same breath as mentioning rape and murder.

    I’m interested in what the Bible has revealed concerning the issue of Christian using lethal force.

    Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave clear instructions, it seems to me. We can either believe it and attempt to live it, or walk according to what seems right in our own eyes.

    At least on this issue, it appears most chose the latter.

    peace to you
     
    #77 canadyjd, Jun 7, 2022
  18. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Strange that you aren't actually answering that (especially when there was a period which indicates an end to a sentence, and a beginning of a new one - nice try though :Thumbsup).
    What the bible says about self defense is in the verse I gave you - if you want to disregard it with the tired old "we don't live under old covenant" argument, then that is fine, but murder and rape are OT rules too, so I guess you should disregard those as well.
     
    #78 5 point Gillinist, Jun 7, 2022
  19. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    What about the Reformations? Catholic and Protestant.

    Regardless of our opinion today the Crusades, there were 8 in total as I recall, they were considered just under God by the faithful.
     
    #79 BasketFinch, Jun 7, 2022
  20. BasketFinch

    BasketFinch Active Member

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    I've already discussed Jesus death.

    And history varies by tradition regarding the Apostles.
    One thing we know is Jesus told them to buy swords. And why. And it was so they'd have them after he left.

    Do we ignore that?

    do we know how apostles died at DuckDuckGo
     
    #80 BasketFinch, Jun 7, 2022
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