Governments in Europe needed to defend against Islam. This is the role of government.
Of course many of the Crusades were not just at all. The Children's crusade was a godless enslavement of children sent off to a life of slavery in Northern Africa.
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Does the Bible allow Christians to defend themselves with lethal force?
- Thread starter canadyjd
- Start date
Of course many of the Crusades were not just at all. The Children's crusade was a godless enslavement of children sent off to a life of slavery in Northern Africa.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I gave you the historical background of the crusades, which is a topic for a different thread.
I don’t think we are going to have a useful conversation concerning the use of deadly force by Christians. You seem to believe Jesus commanded His disciples (and us by extension) to squire weapons and kill anyone that persecuted us.
I find that completely unbiblical and directly contradicting 2000 years of church history.
But we can disagree
peace to you
This is off topic, but I am going to post it anyway because I think it is relevant.
I wonder how this poll would line up with supporting the death penalty.
I suspect those people in favor of killing in self defence would, with a few exceptions, favor the death penalty and those who object to one would object to the other.
The reason I think this is both issues seem to go deeper than simple self defence or the death penalty as they seem to strike at what it means to be Christ-like.
I wonder how this poll would line up with supporting the death penalty.
I suspect those people in favor of killing in self defence would, with a few exceptions, favor the death penalty and those who object to one would object to the other.
The reason I think this is both issues seem to go deeper than simple self defence or the death penalty as they seem to strike at what it means to be Christ-like.
BasketFinch
Active Member
We certainly can disagree.
I don't appreciate people putting words by implication into my posts that I never said. It is intellectual dishonesty.
That's worse when a platform venerating death insists God prefers we die as slaves to evil intent. Rather than resist because God is greater than the evil that comes against us.
It's not a platform of God.
When he saves us from our sins and eternity in damnation with Satan as our landlord, he certainly wouldn't tell us to allow Satanic evil to overcome his authority over us because we've been led to believe while saved from sin and guaranteed eternal life, we're to consent to allow evil to take our mortal life without resistance.
And it is a hypocritical illigucal distinction without a difference for anyone to claim we can defend our life and family against worldly offenders threatening our/their life, but must consent to die on our knees without a fight when we're threatened with death for our faith.
Someone asked if I would surrender my guns for the sake of the kingdom.
My God's kingdom does not rise or fall based on whether or not I am armed.
BasketFinch
Active Member
Every Christian alive in America or anywhere at all are members of the faith that was defended by warriors. Not pacifists.
Show some respect.
Show some respect.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is simply untrue. Every Christian alive today exists by the will of God and by His power and they stand upon the shoulders of those Christians that refused to be confirmed to the world and followed their Lord Jesus Christ in passive acceptance of the persecution that is sure to come for our faith even into death.
I respect God and His Word, first and foremost.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
So you cry foul that I have put words in your mouth and in the next breath make outrageous statements about what I believe.
I have obviously upset you, so I’ll bow out for now so everyone can cool off.
peace to you
BasketFinch
Active Member
I'm not upset save for when someone puts their words by implication into my posts.
And I go by your posts that tell what you believe.
BasketFinch
Active Member
Now see, that passive confession supporting martyrdom above is what I referred to in my prior post that you took umbrage with when you then accused me of making outrageous claims about what you believe.
I speak to what you confess yourself.
Every Christian was born human first and by the will of God.
We know this.
We also know we were graced God's free irrevocable gifts of faith, Salvation and immortal life.
The Old Testament is irrefutable proof the truth of God and his sovereign dominion established his kingdom on earth in the face of his enemies.
God, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Who does not change, and is not a man that he should lie.
Martyrs of the faith died in the face of the enemy. Our Savior was the first. Sent to transform life on earth by his sacrifice and resurrection.
He proved the body is weak while the spirit is eternal.
A new covenant sealed by his blood.
Our history is like unto a tapestry.
Every thread bearing witness that no matter how we died, as members counted as saints in a living truth growing and spreading world wide upon the bodies of the dead, be we perished on our feet in war or on our knees in surrender, one picture emerges.
Had our ancestors stayed passive in the face of the agents of the enemy that is lord of this plane, threatened as he is by the presence of truth and the shelter of grace, we would have let evil meet no resistance as it sought to eradicate us utterly.
But we prevailed by the grace and will of God.
Which proves if warriors for our faith freedom were not sustained by God's will for it, the enemy would have won, and our faith would have carried us all the way home. Leaving it to be but a short lived memory for a historic epitaph that would read, freedom in religion is never free.
I'm leaving this thread now. History is written and is immutable. Debate does not change that.
All is as God wills.
On earth as it is in heaven.
BasketFinch
Active Member
Now see, that passive confession to martyrdom above is what I referred to in my prior post that you took umbrage with when you then accused me of making outrageous claims about what you believe.
Every Christian was born human first and by the will of God. We know this. We also know we were graced God's free irrevocable gifts of faith and Salvation.
The Old Testament is irrefutable proof the truth of God and his sovereign dominion established his kingdom on earth.
Martyrs of the faith died in the face of the enemy. Our Savior was the first. Sent to transform life on earth by his sacrifice and resurrection.
He proved the body is weak while the spirit is eternal. And sealed an eternal covenant with his blood.
Our history is like unto a tapestry. Every thread bearing witness that no matter how we died, as members counted as saints in a living truth growing and spreading world wide upon the bodies of the dead, be we perished on our feet in war or on our knees in surrender, one picture emerges.
Had our ancestors stayed passive in the face of the agents of the enemy that is lord of this plane, threatened as he is by the presence of truth and the shelter of grace, we would have let evil meet no resistance as it sought to eradicate us utterly.
But we prevailed by the grace and will of God.
Which proves if warriors for our faith freedom were not sustained by God's will for it, the enemy would have won, and our faith would have carried us all the way home. Leaving it to be but a short lived memory for a historic epitaph that would read, freedom in religion is never free.
I'm leaving this thread now. History is written and is immutable. Debate does not change that. It only changes us.
All is as God wills.
On earth as it is in heaven.
Amen and Amen.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I understand what you believe and disagree on several points.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you
Our founding fathers were disobeying God when they revolted against Britain. This is a biblical fact. Many colonists were against the revolution.
God, in His Providence, gave victory to the rebellion and established a new government. The prophet Habakkuk reveals how God uses evil to work out His Providential plan in this world. Just because one group wins a war, it does not justify their actions.
God establishes governments for a season and then removes them. God hates anarchy and always brings Judges to people who wish to do what seems right in their own eyes. Today, we live in a world that is similar to the book of Judges where we see calls for revolt and cries against oppression while individualism runs rampant. God will deal with this issue. The last verse of Judges says this: "In those days there was no King and people did what was right in their own eyes." It seems that Christians are so tied to this earth that they have forgotten their King and instead live like their is no King so that they revert to doing what seems right in their own eyes. To this I cry out, "Even so, come Lord Jesus!"
Our Founding Fathers were in the very will of God in their rebellion, but they were not when they refused to live up to the ideals of all created equal and with God given rights!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Biblically, the US founding fathers were in open rebellion with the will of God and His Word during the revolutionary war.
peace to you
based upon that logic, the jews should never have attempted to form israel again though!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The Jews didn’t form todays Israel. The United Nations formed the current national of Israel after WW2 and immediately brought lasting peace to the Middle East.
peace to you
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Sorry, you asked for a specific claim in a verse and I provided a verse with the requested specific claim. (I had not realized that you had already rejected the word of God or I would not have wasted time responding. If you reject HIS clear words, what possible difference could anything that I say make.)
I leave you to your pre-determined conclusion and apologize for the interruption.
God's will was to take their rebellion and use it for His glory. This does not mean what the rebels did was in obedience to God's word.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I accept your apology and I have not rejected the word of God, I have explained it in context. I simply reject your out of context interpretation of God’s word.
I have always stated I can be convinced to change my mind based on scripture in context. That is the goal of debate, imo.
peace to you