Does the Bible allow Christians to defend themselves with lethal force?

[Dave G]

What does scripture say about Christians using lethal force to protect themselves or others?

" Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." ( Romans 12:17-21 ).

" Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others?] do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." ( Matthew 5:43-48 ).

IMO, there are many other places the Lord has told us to leave this subject to Him...
He is our Deliverer as believers:

Psalms 34.
Psalms 37.

 

[BasketFinch]

We don’t live under OT law.

Jesus said in Luke 6:29 “if someone takes your cloak, give him your coat as well.”

Nothing about killing the thief, but rather enduring the mistreatment passively.

peace to you

You're missing the point.God of Exodus is Jesus, Emmanuel, of the book of Luke 22 and the NT.

God cannot deny himself.

 

[BasketFinch]

" Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." ( Romans 12:17-21 ).

" Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others?] do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." ( Matthew 5:43-48 ).

IMO, there are many other places the Lord has told us to leave this subject to Him...
He is our Deliverer as believers...

Psalms 34.
Psalms 37.

No Christians were killed in the Texas school shooting?

 

[canadyjd]

Strange that you aren't actually answering that (especially when there was a period which indicates an end to a sentence, and a beginning of a new one - nice try though ).
What the bible says about self defense is in the verse I gave you - if you want to disregard it with the tired old "we don't live under old covenant" argument, then that is fine, but murder and rape are OT rules too, so I guess you should disregard those as well.

I have addressed it. If you read my posts you will find what I said so you won’t have to “guess” what I believe.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

What about the Reformations? Catholic and Protestant.

Regardless of our opinion today the Crusades, there were 8 in total as I recall, they were considered just under God by the faithful.

The crusades occurred when Muslims invaded Constantinople and the Patriarch of the Eastern Church sent a letter to Pope Urban (?), asking for a professional army to assist. The Pope gave a speech, inviting Nobles to gather armies to take Jerusalem (not help the eastern church) and promised a plenary indulgence (all sins ever committed during your life forgiven so you go directly to heaven) to all evolved in the crusade.

The nobles dismissed the idea, mostly, but the peasants got word and marched south, whole villages emptied, committing rape and butchery all the way. Muslims claim Christian crusaders, staving by the time they reached the Holy land, were killing and eating Muslim children.

All crusades failed. They were only considered “just” in the minds of those believing the Pope could actually forgive their sins and they had license to rape torture and kill all they wanted.

The Muslims believe all Christians are like the crusaders, baby killers and cannibals.

Nothing just in the eyes of God about it.

What about the reformers?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

And history varies by tradition regarding the Apostles.
One thing we know is Jesus told them to buy swords. And why. And it was so they'd have them after he left.

Do we ignore that?

do we know how apostles died at DuckDuckGo

I haven’t ignored it at all. I think I’ve addressed it twice already.

There is no record of any Apostle, after the resurrection, taking up swords and fighting to avoid persecution. Rather, they were all passively martyred as Jesus was..

peace to you

 

[BasketFinch]

The crusades occurred when Muslims invaded Constantinople and the Patriarch of the Eastern Church sent a letter to Pope Urban (?), asking for a professional army to assist. The Pope gave a speech, inviting Nobles to gather armies to take Jerusalem (not help the eastern church) and promised a plenary indulgence (all sins ever committed during your life forgiven so you go directly to heaven) to all evolved in the crusade.

The nobles dismissed the idea, mostly, but the peasants got word and marched south, whole villages emptied, committing rape and butchery all the way. Muslims claim Christian crusaders, staving by the time they reached the Holy land, were killing and eating Muslim children.

All crusades failed. They were only considered “just” in the minds of those believing the Pope could actually forgive their sins and they had license to rape torture and kill all they wanted.

The Muslims believe all Christians are like the crusaders, baby killers and cannibals.

Nothing just in the eyes of God about it.

What about the reformers?

Peace to you

I think you're missing the point. All was in the name of God for the cause of the faith.
The 8 Crusades Explained - Listverse

I'll leave it to you to research the Reformation's.

 

[canadyjd]

You're missing the point.God of Exodus is Jesus, Emmanuel, of the book of Luke 22 and the NT.

God cannot deny himself.

You are missing the point. The church is not a theocracy as ancient Israel was. God expects Christians to be different from ancient Israel.

He has given us specific commands on how to respond to persecution which is passively, as our Lord Jesus did. The Apostles understood that and did not “take up the sword” to fight against persecution. The early church understood that and many were passively martyred.

It wasn’t until the Emperor Constantine became a Christian and church power was consolidated in Rome was the church militarized and began killing those who disagreed with leadership.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I think you're missing the point. All was in the name of God for the cause of the faith.
The 8 Crusades Explained - Listverse

I'll leave it to you to research the Reformation's.

No, just because someone claims they are doing something in the name of God doesn’t make it true.

The crusades were a radical departure from early church, biblical, beliefs concerning shedding blood.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

No Christians were killed in the Texas school shooting?

Did God protect any Christians in the Texas school shooting?

peace to you

 

[BasketFinch]

I haven’t ignored it at all. I think I’ve addressed it twice already.

There is no record of any Apostle, after the resurrection, taking up swords and fighting to avoid persecution. Rather, they were all passively martyred as Jesus was..

peace to you

To the contrary. You ignore the apostles had swords and Jesus commanded their purchase for when he was no longer with them.

There is a record of that. And as the link provided showed, the deaths of the apostles and the accounts vary per tradition. Which means something.

 

[BasketFinch]

No, just because someone claims they are doing something in the name of God doesn’t make it true.

The crusades were a radical departure from early church, biblical, beliefs concerning shedding blood.

peace to you

Not true.
God does not change. The same, yesterday,today,forever.

 

[AustinC]

Not true.
God does not change. The same, yesterday,today,forever.

Yep. God promises he will never leave us nor forsake us. He tells us if we want to follow Him we must pick up our cross (not our guns) and follow him to death.

 

[BasketFinch]

You are missing the point. The church is not a theocracy as ancient Israel was. God expects Christians to be different from ancient Israel.

He has given us specific commands on how to respond to persecution which is passively, as our Lord Jesus did. The Apostles understood that and did not “take up the sword” to fight against persecution. The early church understood that and many were passively martyred.

It wasn’t until the Emperor Constantine became a Christian and church power was consolidated in Rome was the church militarized and began killing those who disagreed with leadership.

peace to you

You should study early Catholic church history.

 

[BasketFinch]

Yep. God promises he will never leave us nor forsake us. He tells us if we want to follow Him we must pick up our cross (not our guns) and follow him to death.

My faith is not invested in a death cult.

Our Jesus is the water of life.

 

[BasketFinch]

Did God protect any Christians in the Texas school shooting?

peace to you

That's your answer to my question.

 

[AustinC]

My faith is not invested in a death cult.

Our Jesus is the water of life.

He is the bread of life and the living waters.
Even so, Christians, like ancient Israel, still harbor idols in their lives.

If God demands it, will you give up your guns for the Kingdom?

If we cannot follow Jesus to the cross, then we were never really his followers.

 

[canadyjd]

You should study early Catholic church history.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[BasketFinch]

He is the bread of life and the living waters.
Even so, Christians, like ancient Israel, still harbor idols in their lives.

If God demands it, will you give up your guns for the Kingdom?

If we cannot follow Jesus to the cross, then we were never really his followers.

Now you're getting dangerously close to violating the rules of decorum here. Whi h means you have a very weak point.

I'll leave you to your doctrine.

 

[BasketFinch]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

It helps to know the church history to understand the why of the crusades.

If that offends you it wasn't my intention. It was meant to help your understanding more, when you make statements about the crusades that demonstrate a lack of that knowledge.

Thank you also. Be blessed.