A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation

[Martin Marprelate]

God does not justify the wicked or the ungodly.

Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness..'
Do you believe on Him who justifies the ungodly? I hope so.

We can play word games and "gotcha" all day long but to what end?

Why is this a 'gotcha game'? You made a false statement and I pulled you up on it.

The passage does s speaking of works vs faith in terms of justification.

I don't understand this statement. Will you please re-print it in English?

Romans 4:5–6 to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

I am speaking of "the wrath to come". This is on the wicked and ungodly.

At Judgment, if you are wicked then you will be cast I to the lake for fire.

Or to play your game -. you believe Christians are wicked and ungodly...that the gospel is benign and God powerless???

Abraham was ungodly; Paul was certainly ungodly (1 Timothy 1:15) and so was I. I think you'd better hope that God justifies the ungodly.

But the main point I am making is that God does justify the ungodly. It also pleased Him to crush the sinless Christ and put Him to grief, despite Proverbs 17:15. This is whether one believes in Penal Substitution or not. So your argument that Proverbs 17:15 refutes P.S. falls to the ground with a crash.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate is just playing a word game here. He is fully aware that I believe God recreated the wicked into a new, and not wicked, recreation via a new birth.

But apparently He didn't justify them. But tell me: where do Christ and the cross come into your theory?

 

[37818]

And yet........
God does justify the ungodly (Romans 4:5), and it did please God to crush the sinless Christ, putting Him to grief (Isaiah 53:10).
What we have to do is to work out how He can do that and still be perfectly righteous.

There are one or two things that apparently God cannot do. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2) and He cannot deny Himself 2 Timothy 2:13).

Also Hebrews 6:13-20, ". . . For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. . . ."

 

[JonC]

This is a very strange question. Because of John 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 5:21. If God was happy simply to forgive men their sins, then Christ could have stayed at home. But God is just and God is holy, and He cannot deny Himself. Therefore all the sins of His people were put upon the Lord Jesus and He has paid the penalty for them in full. His perfect righteousness is credited to those who trust in Him so that God sees no sin in them, hence no condemnation (Romans 8:1) and no punishment.
.

It may seem that be a strange question to you, but it is not a strange question at all. The passages you provide (John 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 5:21) do not address the issue of the question at all.

We agree that God is just and holy. That is not in question.

But you approach divine justice with the idea that God must punish sins (sinful actions) rather than God will punish the wicked. If the latter we would be in agreement.

So how do you come up with the idea that divine justice demands that sins (not the actual wicked, but sins committed by the wicked) must be punished EVEN IF THIS IS NOT PUNISHING THE TRANSGRESSOR?

Once you are able to legitimately provide a reason for that philosophy THEN we can move forward with a discussion about interpretation.

 

[JonC]

But apparently He didn't justify them. But tell me: where do Christ and the cross come into your theory?

The cross is center in my understanding of Atonement. Not only was it necessary for Christ to die, but it was necessary that He die on a Roman cross condemned by both the Jews and the Roman government.

I never said that God does not justify sinners. I am saying that God WILL punish the wicked at Judgment. Why you do not believe that is beyond me...you just think God will separate the Redeemed from the wicked and let the wicked go unpunished. (See two can play at that game - the difference is I am doing it for illustration as I know that is not what you believe so I am not being dishonest towards you).

 

[JonC]

I have explained that to you times without number. You just don't pay any attention. I have answered you again in Post #39 above.
I think @SavedByGrace is perfectly able to refute your post #25 without any help from me, but if doesn't answer your post tomorrow, I shall take great pleasure in refuting it line by line as it deserves.

None of you have answered the question. You say because God is just, because God is holy, and then spout off a bunch of verses we all believe.

But you never actually answer the question. Why do you believe justice is served by punishing sins even if it is not punishing the transgressor????

If you punch me in the nose why do you believe I have to punch somebody else in the nose to forgive you?

 

[JonC]

Why is this a 'gotcha game'? You made a false statement and I pulled you up on it.

I don't understand this statement. Will you please re-print it in English?

Abraham was ungodly; Paul was certainly ungodly (1 Timothy 1:15) and so was I. I think you'd better hope that God justifies the ungodly.

But the main point I am making is that God does justify the ungodly. It also pleased Him to crush the sinless Christ and put Him to grief, despite Proverbs 17:15. This is whether one believes in Penal Substitution or not. So your argument that Proverbs 17:15 refutes P.S. falls to the ground with a crash.

It is a false statement because I have already explained that the context I am speaking of is Judgment, i.e., "the wrath to come".

You are ignoring what I have already said and pretending like that was a new comment, and you know better.

You may believe God will justify the wicked at Judgment but I believe the only ones that will be justified are those in Christ.

 

[JonC]

Abraham was ungodly; Paul was certainly ungodly (1 Timothy 1:15) and so was I. I think you'd better hope that God justifies the ungodly.

So you believe Abraham and Paul will stand before God at Judgment as wicked men.

I disagree. We must die to the flesh and be reborn (recreated) in the image of Christ. As Christians we are being conformed into His image.

If you stand before God at Judgment as a wicked man then you will face condemnation.

The Scripture you are denying is Ezekiel 36.

God gives us a new heart and a new spirit. He puts His Spirit in us. To consider Paul at Judgment as wicked is to consider Christ wicked.

Obviously you do not understand the rebirth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The cross is center in my understanding of Atonement. Not only was it necessary for Christ to die, but it was necessary that He die on a Roman cross condemned by both the Jews and the Roman government.

I never said that God does not justify sinners.

Actually, you did. First you tried to avoid answering the question; then you flatly denied that God justifies the ungodly.

I am saying that God WILL punish the wicked at Judgment. Why you do not believe that is beyond me...you just think God will separate the Redeemed from the wicked and let the wicked go unpunished. (See two can play at that game - the difference is I am doing it for illustration as I know that is not what you believe so I am not being dishonest towards you).

You have told me that it was necessary for Christ to die, but you have still not explained why it was necessary or what it achieved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you believe Abraham and Paul will stand before God at Judgment as wicked men.

Abraham believed on Him who justifies the ungodly. He believed in God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He saw the day of the Lord Jesus and rejoiced to see it.
Paul, in 1 Timothy 1:15, declares himself to be the first (chief) of sinners Protos eimi ego. Present tense. All Paul's hope was in the Lord Jesus Christ; none in himself, even as a redeemed man (Romans 7:21-25).

I disagree. We must die to the flesh and be reborn (recreated) in the image of Christ. As Christians we are being conformed into His image.

If you stand before God at Judgment as a wicked man then you will face condemnation.

Well, according to you I'm in big trouble then. 'For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise.' If I am dependent on anything in me for my salvation, I am doomed because it is will be incomplete (1 John 1:8-10). My only hope is that I have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). And when I stand before the Father in judgment and He turns to the Lord Jesus and says, "What about that Martin Marprelate then?" All Jesus has to do is show His nail-scarred hands and the Father will say, "Quite right! Of you go, Martin. Harps on the left; halos on the right!"
Now this is a wretched anthropomorphism, but I hope you get the idea; I'm trying to help you with an illustration.

'My hope is built on nothing less
That Jesus' blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' name.
On Christ the solid rock I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.'

The Scripture you are denying is Ezekiel 36.

God gives us a new heart and a new spirit. He puts His Spirit in us.

I do not at all deny the New Birth. Without it, one cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. But if Christ has not paid for your sins in full, nothing is more certain that you will have to pay for them yourself.

To consider Paul at Judgment as wicked is to consider Christ wicked.

Obviously you do not understand the rebirth.

Paul considered himself wicked (see above). I am concerned that you do not understand Christianity.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[JonC]

Abraham believed on Him who justifies the ungodly. He believed in God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He saw the day of the Lord Jesus and rejoiced to see it.
Paul, in 1 Timothy 1:15, declares himself to be the first (chief) of sinners Protos eimi ego. Present tense. All Paul's hope was in the Lord Jesus Christ; none in himself, even as a redeemed man (Romans 7:21-25).

Well, according to you I'm in big trouble then. 'For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise.' If I am dependent on anything in me for my salvation, I am doomed because it is will be incomplete (1 John 1:8-10). My only hope is that I have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). And when I stand before the Father in judgment and He turns to the Lord Jesus and says, "What about that Martin Marprelate then?" All Jesus has to do is show His nail-scarred hands and the Father will say, "Quite right! Of you go, Martin. Harps on the left; halos on the right!"
Now this is a wretched anthropomorphism, but I hope you get the idea; I'm trying to help you with an illustration.

'My hope is built on nothing less
That Jesus' blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' name.
On Christ the solid rock I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.'

I do not at all deny the New Birth. Without it, one cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. But if Christ has not paid for your sins in full, nothing is more certain that you will have to pay for them yourself.

Paul considered himself wicked (see above). I am concerned that you do not understand Christianity.

I am concerned that you do not understand Christianity.

Do you not know, @Martin Marprelate , that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Those of us who are Christians (not who are wicked but who have been "reborn") are not the people we once we're.

The problem is that you have a form of godliness but you deny the power of God to change a person.

The wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Many may look godly, but if they have just changed their behavior without being reborn they will hear the words "I never knew you".

I understand why you believed being reborn (or "born of the Spirit") is just a metaphor. That is one reason I am so concerned about your views. You deny an actual rebirth (a "re-creation") because it goes beyond merely learning the "right" things.

I encourage you to study Scripture, but also to find a pastor who can come along side and mentor you.

In the end, however, the thing you despise about me - my belief that God actually gives us a new spirit, that He puts His Spirit in us, that men must actually be reborn spiritually - is essential for the Christian faith.

Your view that Christians are wicked tramples the blood of Christ shed for us. Rather than God recreating man, conforming man into the image of Christ, your argument that God will at Judgment simply acquit the wicked is not a Christian belief.

You have strayed very far from the faith by allowing yourself to be carried away by vain philosophy.

 

[JonC]

Actually, you did. First you tried to avoid answering the question; then you flatly denied that God justifies the ungodly.

You have told me that it was necessary for Christ to die, but you have still not explained why it was necessary or what it achieved.

I do deny that God, at the Judgment, will justify the wicked. Scripture tells us that the ungodly WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

God will separate the people. The formerly wicked people who have been washed, cleansed, reborn...they will live. The wicked, however, will be "cast into the Lake of Fire".

Your believe that God will offer justification for the wicked at Judgment is wrong. That will be too late.

I believe Scripture is true. Man MUST be born again.

I have told you that it was necessary for Christ to die. The reason is to free man from the bondage of sin and death. We had to have a different "Adam". What was achieved is man was recorded nailed to God.

Why do you believe God must punish sinful actions even if this does not mean punishing the transgressors?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am very clear on what the Bible says (and what it does not say).

You plainly are not because you have denied that God justifies the ungodly, and then had to perform a theological handbrake turn..

My goal is to get others to reexamine their views against Scripture. Scripture (what is written) is the standard I try to apply at least to vital doctrines like this one. There is so much you miss clinging to the theory.

It is you who are clinging to this mythical 'theory.' You mention it all the time; no one else does.

The problem with Penal Substitution Theory is it is not in the Bible. I could say Jesus flew on an airplane and healed thousands by flying over. By your standard that would not be unbiblical.

We are not responsible for your theory. If you want to engage with the Scriptures, that would be much better.

It is unbiblical because Scripture is the standard by which we test doctrine.

Penal Substitution is highly Biblical. I have shown you a range of Scriptures which you have rejected for no reason. Specifically, your specious claim that huper cannot have the meaning of 'instead of' is refuted by John 12:50.

It is unbiblical because Scripture presents God's wrath as abiding on the wicked, not actions.

Sins are things sinners do, and sinners are people who commit sins, so your point is moot.
However, if you will look at Proverbs 6:16-19, you will find that the LORD hates 'a proud look' (action). 'a lying tongue' (action), 'hands that shed innocent blood' (action), 'a heart that devises wickedness' (action), 'feet that are swift in running to mischief' (action). Only 'a false witness speaking lies' and 'he that sows discord among brethren' directly refer to sinners, although these too involve action.

It is unbiblical because sins cannot be transferred.

Sins can be transferred. You have provided no Scripture to prove otherwise whilst I have shown you Leviticus 16:21-22 (type), Isaiah 53:6 (prophecy) and 1 Peter 2:24 (history) to prove that our sins were transferred to Christ.

It is unbiblical because it denied the forgiveness of sins.

On the contrary, it makes forgiveness possible.

It is unbiblical because it assumes a pagan view of sacrifice.

It is utterly different to the pagan view of sacrifice. Pagan sacrifice is men making offerings to their god in the hope of propitiating them. Penal Substitution is God Himself setting forth Christ as a propitiation.

It is unbiblical because it minimizes God and elevates human sin.

On the contrary, it elevates the holiness, righteousness, mercy and love of God (Psalms 85:10), while revealing His detestation of sin.

And it is unbiblical because its disciples (including you) are unable to account for the philosophy on which it stands.

On the contrary, the philosophy upon which Penal Substitution stands is found in 2 Samuel 14:14b; John 3:16 and many other places.

Why do you believe in order to forgive a sinner God must punish sinful acts even if it is not punishing the transgressor?

So that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.[/QUOTE]

 

[JonC]

You plainly are not because you have denied that God justifies the ungodly, and then had to perform a theological handbrake turn..

It is you who are clinging to this mythical 'theory.' You mention it all the time; no one else does.

We are not responsible for your theory. If you want to engage with the Scriptures, that would be much better.

Penal Substitution is highly Biblical. I have shown you a range of Scriptures which you have rejected for no reason. Specifically, your specious claim that huper cannot have the meaning of 'instead of' is refuted by John 12:50.

Sins are things sinners do, and sinners are people who commit sins, so your point is moot.
However, if you will look at Proverbs 6:16-19, you will find that the LORD hates 'a proud look' (action). 'a lying tongue' (action), 'hands that shed innocent blood' (action), 'a heart that devises wickedness' (action), 'feet that are swift in running to mischief' (action). Only 'a false witness speaking lies' and 'he that sows discord among brethren' directly refer to sinners, although these too involve action.

Sins can be transferred. You have provided no Scripture to prove otherwise whilst I have shown you Leviticus 16:21-22 (type), Isaiah 53:6 (prophecy) and 1 Peter 2:24 (history) to prove that our sins were transferred to Christ.

On the contrary, it makes forgiveness possible.

It is utterly different to the pagan view of sacrifice. Pagan sacrifice is men making offerings to their god in the hope of propitiating them. Penal Substitution is God Himself setting forth Christ as a propitiation.

On the contrary, it elevates the holiness, righteousness, mercy and love of God (Psalms 85:10), while revealing His detestation of sin.

On the contrary, the philosophy upon which Penal Substitution stands is found in 2 Samuel 14:14b; John 3:16 and many other places.

So that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

I am sorry to point this out to you, but you are now intentionally bearing false witness against me. It is sad that you have forfeited your character, your integrity, in order to try to "win" an argument.

As I have told you repeatedly, I believe that God justifies the ungodly, that He is the justifier of sinners.

My argument is that on the day of Judgement the wicked will not be justified. We, those of us who are saved...who have been cleansed, who have been justified....will not be among the wicked.

You simply do not understand the Christian faith.

Let me help.

God saves sinners. God takes out their old heart and spirit and gives them a new one. God puts Him s Spirit in them and causes them to obey His statutes.

Man must be born again.

If, on the day of Judgment, you are wicked then you will not inherit the kingdom of God....for the wicked shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So you should examine yourself and see if your current sin is a mark of your life or a momentary lapse. You must be killing sin or sin will be killing you. And that is something between you and God. You put your sin out here - on open display - which is a good thing. It is an opportunity for you to repent and continue to be confirmed to the image of Christ.

 

[JonC]

Sins are things sinners do, and sinners are people who commit sins, so your point is moot.
...

On the contrary, it elevates the holiness, righteousness, mercy and love of God (Psalms 85:10), while revealing His detestation of sin.

I wish you had taken more time to study Scripture before adopting a tradition, but I understand you have chosen a tradition to follow and will not be moved. My questions are of you, but for the benefit of a younger generation less steeped in the traditions of men.

Sins are actions. When God forgives sins what He is doing is forgiving people OF THEIR sins. When God punished sins He is punishing people FOR THEIR sins.

You hold a defunct philosophy and have applied it to Scripture. You hold, thank God, a minority view. But many hold your view because they are more concerned about their traditions than they are about God.

I ask again, why does God have to punish sinful actions separated from the transgressor in order to forgive sins?

The answer, of course, is that He doesn't. God will punish the wicked at Judgment (in the Bible this is called "the wrath to come") for "the wicked shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As I have told you repeatedly, I believe that God justifies the ungodly, that He is the justifier of sinners.

But didn't you also tell me:

Proverbs 17:15
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord..

And in the light of Isaiah 53:10, God is clearly one who condemns the righteous.
I'm wondering how you account for that.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Sins are actions. When God forgives sins what He is doing is forgiving people OF THEIR sins. When God punished sins He is punishing people FOR THEIR sins.

Amen! No difference between us here.

I ask again, why does God have to punish sinful actions separated from the transgressor in order to forgive sins?

Because if God punishes sinful people for their actions, no one could be saved. God has placed the sins of His people upon Jesus who has paid the penalty for them in full. Therefore when God looks upon His people, He sees (as Judge) no sin, only the spotless righteousness of Christ

When Satan tempts me to despair,
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.'

 

[JonC]

But didn't you also tell me:

And in the light of Isaiah 53:10, God is clearly one who condemns the righteous.
I'm wondering how you account for that.

It is simple how I account for that.

I believe man must be born again (something you dismiss as merely symbolic).

You insist that the wicked will inherit the kingdom of God.

But 1 Cor 6:9 says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?"

I guess you just didn't know.

 

[JonC]

Amen! No difference between us here.

Because if God punishes sinful people for their actions, no one could be saved. God has placed the sins of His people upon Jesus who has paid the penalty for them in full. Therefore when God looks upon His people, He sees (as Judge) no sin, only the spotless righteousness of Christ

When Satan tempts me to despair,
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.'

But your solution is God becomes unjust so that people can be saved.

You are simply wrong.

God punishes the wicked. What you reject is that men must be reborn. Rather than changing God, God changes man.

 

[JesusFan]

But your solution is God becomes unjust so that people can be saved.

You are simply wrong.

God punishes the wicked. What you reject is that men must be reborn. Rather than changing God, God changes man.

God can ONLY forgive and justify any sinner on the basis of the Cross of Christ, what he did for them, as our sins were imputed on Him so that His very righteousness imputed on us!