A Dispensationalist View of Calvinism

[AustinC]

Yes, the elect are every one. God voted and elected all to be saved. Why would an individual not vote to accept that election? Because they as a sinner vote for themselves and against God's vote.

The work is not on getting saved. The work by humans is to constantly avoid salvation. No one is automatically saved. They are just automatically elected by God to be saved. Those who do give up their will, just end up being the ones elected that count.

Calvinist claim the Atonement was only for the elect, making the starting point narrow. What is even the point to think about salvation, if there literally is no choice in the matter?

Universalism is the teaching that no one is a sinner. Not that all humanity has been elected to be redeemed.

Since not every one knows they are elected, they need to hear about the Atonement. That is why the Gospel has to go out to all. Then those hearing can reject which does narrow down the end result.

If...your assertion is correct...and God has elected all people for salvation...then...either God gets what He chooses...or human will is more powerful than God's will and humans break free of their salvation and overpower God.

Which one is it?

By your assertion these are the two views of God (theology) that you assert.
1) Universalism
2) Human will is superior,over and above God's will.

Universalism is that all humans have been atoned for by Jesus sacrifice (that is what you are claiming when you assert universal election).

You claim that the failure of God, and Christians, to preach the gospel to the "already elect" and the "already elect's" powerful will to reject God's election, makes them go to hell.

What you have asserted has literally zero support in the Bible. In other words, you have made a completely false assertion.

 

[37818]

Not at all. However, you are refusing to be honest about your own position. If you wish to hold to a contradicting circular argument, you certainly may. Just don't think that it's what God teaches.

You are not justified in your view here. To put it this way, you are seeing what I am not seeing. To me you are coming across as being irrational. You falsely claimed works were no works were being claimed. Now that is irrational.

. . . is conditional on believing and to accept it only as the gift.

 

[AustinC]

Calvinism is not a soterological view, it is a bogus soterological view, rejecting God's word and embracing the invention of men.

LOL, you just contradicted yourself, Van.

 

[AustinC]

You are not justified in your view here. To put it this way, you are seeing what I am not seeing. To me you are coming across as being irrational. You falsely claimed works were no works were being claimed. Now that is irrational.

I am seeing what is being said and you cannot see it. We agree.

 

[37818]

I am seeing what is being said and you cannot see it. We agree.

The necessity of a gift is a work?

 

[JD731]

You quoted them. You did not explain what they mean.
When John the Baptist declared "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" was he speaking universally? If so, then all humanity is made perfect before God and every human is justified, without spot or blemish. Every human from Adam to the end of time will be in heaven.

Do you think that is what John the Baptist meant?

As for the covenantal atoning sacrifices in the nation of Israel, you must read Hebrews. Note that the priests had to continually offer sacrifices for the people as well as themselves. Also note that those sacrifices were for the chosen people of God The elect. (Did you read the document I provided to you?) But, Jesus is greater than the Old Covenant, which pointed toward Jesus. Jesus is both the sacrifice and the High Priest. He is far superior in both ways. As a sacrifice he only had to sacrifice once. His atonement was for all the elect, chosen people of God. He did not have to atone for his own sins, like the high priests of Israel because he perfectly kept the law. He is greater than all old covenant and its foreshadowing because He fulfilled it all. JD, do you not know these things? Has your mentor not explained this? Has he pointed you toward universalism and taught that all humanity is fully, universally atoned for by Jesus? Do you even comprehend what that implies?

At present, your doctrine is so messed up that you really have no idea what you are talking about. You are presently arguing for a heresy, rejected by Christians, yet you don't know it. Read your Bible. I couldn't care less if you hold to dispensationalism, but I do care that you presently hold to a form of universalism that is contrary to the Bible and to God himself.

AustinC, my op is intended to tell the truth about the Reformed faith, which is Calvinism. I charge that it is tares in the field, scattered there by the enemy. And lest I offend some non-Reformed who still yet believes Calvinism is just a different way of expressing Christianity, making me paint with too broad a brush, I will just say this is my personal opinion.

I believe the Reformed Jesus is a different Jesus than the one I worship and adore. My Father God is a different God than your Father God. How you teach that sinners get saved is different than the way I got saved. Who can be saved is different according to you than what I read in scripture. And speaking of scripture, I could quote a thousand verses to you and you would meet each one in the same manner you have met the ones I have already quoted in this thread, by ignoring them and not believing them. The reason for this is because the Reformed faith is only loosely based on scriptures and they are surely not your authority. Calvinism cannot be corrected by the scriptures for this reason. You put this truth on display daily because since 1901 you have presented the world with nearly one hundred variations of English bibles, paraphrases, and other condensed versions and editions, and when I read that you want us to believe that your God is as narrow as what you have already claimed, this practice only exposes your hypocrisy.

I have tried to find something that is true in Calvinism, but nothing is true in Calvinism. All the doctrines of scripture are skewed and corrupted. This truth can be demonstrated by the long list of forum topics. There is no agreement with Christians on any of those topics. Christians read scriptures and see a God who so loves the world that he gave his only begotten Son to die and pay the penalty for their sins and the Calvinist objects with their hateful God creating billions for the express purpose of sending them to hell with no hope of redemption. Christians are assured that it is not the will of God that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, and the Calvinist roars, no, it is me, and maybe you, and those 4 over yonder, and the rest be damned. Christians read that the blood of the lovely Lord Jesus Christ propitiated God for the sins of the whole world and that God is now reconciled to sinners because sin is put away and the preacher can now say, whosoever will come in the name of Jesus Christ and through faith in him will be received because God's anger against sin has been appeased. The Calvinist says that is not true.

There are fundamental differences all over the place and we are not the same. That is what I believe and I am not taking it back.

 

[AustinC]

AustinC, my op is intended to tell the truth about the Reformed faith, which is Calvinism. I charge that it is tares in the field, scattered there by the enemy. And lest I offend some non-Reformed who still yet believes Calvinism is just a different way of expressing Christianity, making me paint with too broad a brush, I will just say this is my personal opinion.

I believe the Reformed Jesus is a different Jesus than the one I worship and adore. My Father God is a different God than your Father God. How you teach that sinners get saved is different than the way I got saved. Who can be saved is different according to you than what I read in scripture. And speaking of scripture, I could quote a thousand verses to you and you would meet each one in the same manner you have met the ones I have already quoted in this thread, by ignoring them and not believing them. The reason for this is because the Reformed faith is only loosely based on scriptures and they are surely not your authority. Calvinism cannot be corrected by the scriptures for this reason. You put this truth on display daily because since 1901 you have presented the world with nearly one hundred variations of English bibles, paraphrases, and other condensed versions and editions, and when I read that you want us to believe that your God is as narrow as what you have already claimed, this practice only exposes your hypocrisy.

I have tried to find something that is true in Calvinism, but nothing is true in Calvinism. All the doctrines of scripture are skewed and corrupted. This truth can be demonstrated by the long list of forum topics. There is no agreement with Christians on any of those topics. Christians read scriptures and see a God who so loves the world that he gave his only begotten Son to die and pay the penalty for their sins and the Calvinist objects with their hateful God creating billions for the express purpose of sending them to hell with no hope of redemption. Christians are assured that it is not the will of God that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, and the Calvinist roars, no, it is me, and maybe you, and those 4 over yonder, and the rest be damned. Christians read that the blood of the lovely Lord Jesus Christ propitiated God for the sins of the whole world and that God is now reconciled to sinners because sin is put away and the preacher can now say, whosoever will come in the name of Jesus Christ and through faith in him will be received because his anger against sin has been appeased. The Calvinist says that is not true.

There are fundamental differences all over the place and we are not the same. That is what I believe and I am not taking it back.

I understand what you intended. You utterly failed in what you intended, showing instead that you have no idea what you are talking about.

My advice is that you read the entire Bible. Observe what God says, without any pretext. No Dispensationalism or Covenant views allowed. Just observe without bias. Actually get to know God and what He has said. When you are done reading the Bible, look at your observations and as questions.

You are not ready to give anyone comments on the subject you have chosen.

 

[Van]

LOL, you just contradicted yourself, Van.

Yet another Calvinist claiming something contradicts itself, when it is Calvinism that is based on cognitive dissonance.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another Calvinist claiming something contradicts itself, when it is Calvinism that is based on cognitive dissonance.

You wrote:

Calvinism is not a soterological view, it is a bogus soterological view, rejecting God's word and embracing the invention of men.

Now, you say it is not a view regarding salvation, then, in mid sentence, you say it is a view regarding salvation, but you think it is bogus because you declare that Calvinism is "rejecting God's Word" and embracing some pagan idea.

Everyone, even non-Calvinists, reads what you wrote and knows that your assertion is an outright false statement. It is pure hyperbole on your part and a comment that no one who actually knows Reformed theology would agree with. Only a completely ignorant person would agree with you. Therefore, I do not agree with you at all. You have made false, broad sweeping comments and it is provable fact that you are wrong.

 

[Van]

You wrote:

Now, you say it is not a view regarding salvation, then, in mid sentence, you say it is a view regarding salvation, but you think it is bogus because you declare that Calvinism is "rejecting God's Word" and embracing some pagan idea.

Everyone, even non-Calvinists, reads what you wrote and knows that your assertion is an outright false statement. It is pure hyperbole on your part and a comment that no one who actually knows Reformed theology would agree with. Only a completely ignorant person would agree with you. Therefore, I do not agree with you at all. You have made false, broad sweeping comments and it is provable fact that you are wrong.

Yet another post of absurd gibberish. Calvinism is bogus. Full stop.
Have you explained why many are called but only few are chosen? Nope, you have not.
You reject God's word, in that many are called but few are chosen.
Only a completely ignorant person would deny God says many are called but few are chosen.
You have made false, broad sweeping comments and it is a provable fact you are wrong for many are called but few are chosen thus Conditional Election is the true biblical doctrine.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another post of absurd gibberish. Calvinism is bogus. Full stop.

You should stop here since it's entire garbage you are spewing.

Have you explained why many are called but only few are chosen? Nope, you have not.

I have.
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

You reject God's word, in that many are called but few are chosen.

False
The call goes out to all from the preacher (Read Romans 10). The elect here God's voice and believe. These are those God chooses to extend mercy.

Only a completely ignorant person would deny God says many are called but few are chosen.

No one here at the BB has said this. You are making a very false statement.

You have made false, broad sweeping comments and it is a provable fact you are wrong for many are called but few are chosen thus Conditional Election is the true biblical doctrine.

Many do hear the call. God has chosen whom He wills. There are no conditions added by God to whom he has elected. God chose his adopted children from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1) God chose by His own counsel with no conditions as to His choice.

It is you who forces extra conditions upon salvation. What you do is what Paul, in Galatians, calls "anathema".

 

[Van]

You should stop here since it's entire garbage you are spewing.
SNIP
".

LOL, no you have never explain why many are called, rather than just the elect, and why all those called were not chosen, unless God used some criteria (i.e faith in the truth as determined by God) for choosing!!!

No amount of gibberish will hide this truth...

 

[Van]

If my dog died yesterday, and I call out to him to come for dinner, have I called him? Nope. He cannot hear the call. So Calvinism rewrites scripture to claim many are called, but they cannot hear but then some of those who did not hear are chosen. Good grief, what gibberish.

 

[Van]

According to Calvinism God chose a few, then decided to call many to give the illusion of an opportunity for salvation. This is the absurd nonsense claimed by Calvinism. It is a joke...

 

[AustinC]

According to Calvinism God chose a few, then decided to call many to give the illusion of an opportunity for salvation. This is the absurd nonsense claimed by Calvinism. It is a joke...

No, that is "according to Van" not according to Reformed Theology. Be honest, Van.

According to God...the message of reconciliation goes out to all. The response to reconciliation is no one responds (Romans 3). The choice of God is to choose from the non-response all whom he has mercy upon (Romans 9).

This is not some unvalidated "nonsense claim" as you assert. It is, instead, a valid presentation by God in His Holy Word...which you openly refuse and call nonsense. Such is your response to what God tells you in His Word. That should make you shudder with fear when you meet the King.

 

[AustinC]

If my dog died yesterday, and I call out to him to come for dinner, have I called him? Nope. He cannot hear the call. So Calvinism rewrites scripture to claim many are called, but they cannot hear but then some of those who did not hear are chosen. Good grief, what gibberish.

That's a terrible analogy.
If you are dead, can you hear anything?
No
What must happen?
You must be made alive.
Who can bring a dead person to life so they can hear?
Van, why do you rebel against God's work in salvation?

 

[AustinC]

LOL, no you have never explain why many are called, rather than just the elect, and why all those called were not chosen, unless God used some criteria (i.e faith in the truth as determined by God) for choosing!!!

No amount of gibberish will hide this truth...

LOL, I quoted God's Word which explains it. This shows your rejection of God's Word.

 

[Van]

No, that is "according to Van" not according to Reformed Theology. Be honest, Van.

According to God...the message of reconciliation goes out to all. The response to reconciliation is no one responds (Romans 3). The choice of God is to choose from the non-response all whom he has mercy upon (Romans 9).

This is not some unvalidated "nonsense claim" as you assert. It is, instead, a valid presentation by God in His Holy Word...which you openly refuse and call nonsense. Such is your response to what God tells you in His Word. That should make you shudder with fear when you meet the King.

Ever notice Calvinists say everything about Calvinism is not Calvinism.

 

[Van]

That's a terrible analogy.
If you are dead, can you hear anything?
No
What must happen?
You must be made alive.
Who can bring a dead person to life so they can hear?
Van, why do you rebel against God's work in salvation?

If my dog died yesterday, and I call out to him to come for dinner, have I called him? Nope. He cannot hear the call. So Calvinism rewrites scripture to claim many are called, but they cannot hear but then some of those who did not hear are chosen. Good grief, what gibberish.

 

[AustinC]

If my dog died yesterday, and I call out to him to come for dinner, have I called him? Nope. He cannot hear the call. So Calvinism rewrites scripture to claim many are called, but they cannot hear but then some of those who did not hear are chosen. Good grief, what gibberish.

If your dog died because he broke the law and died, he couldn't hear any call...except for one call. It's the same call that Lazarus heard when he was dead in the womb. Jesus, God Almighty, called out and said "Lazerus, come forth."
God never gives us the list of who he is going to call and give them life from death. God only tells us to go and preach the gospel. We obey God, and we don't question why he commands us to be ambassadors of reconciliation when he knows exactly who he is going to choose.

You are speaking falsehood when you say Calvinism rewrites scripture. There is no changed word.

Our difference is purely in the fact that you lift up humans as the main reason for salvation when you read the Bible while I lift up God as the main reason for salvation. When you read the word "faith" you point to man. When I read the word "faith" I point to God. Neither of us change the words of the Bible. We, instead, look at salvation in different ways. You look at man, man, man, God. I look at God, God, God, man.