Marooncat79 Thank you for the reply. I have to agree with your answer at least in part. I would only add or clarify with the following. I realize that election/predestination is VERY difficult subject to receive by most. The problem is that scripture clearly teaches it. We either have to outright reject the idea, reject scripture, or we have to change the meaning of the term(s) elect/predestination to mean something they do not.
The word elect means to be chosen, determined by another. In this case it is God doing the choosing and He does it totally apart from anything we do, and he does it before or as some would like from the foundation of the world.
The words DO NOT mean we are elect because we get saved. The words mean we get saved because we are elect, chosen to do so.
Also, part of my take on this is a little different than some others who accept God's election. Often times it is taught that Adam and Eve had free will, but we do not. I do not agree with that, but I am open for correction if a reasonable argument can be made.
I certainly do agree that Adam and Eve had free will, but I disagree that we do not. I believe that everyone has free will, but because we are born lost, spiritually dead, we will only exercise it in one direction, away from God.
On the other hand, the elect are given the ability through regeneration to exercise it toward God unto salvation and everyone that is elect will exercise that ability unto salvation.
Some feel that the idea of election forces man to surrender thus they reject election. I do not believe that. I do not believe that in election God violates man's volition. I believe that He simply gives the sinner the ability to make the correct choice and because of the draw towards God we always choose salvation. Like a blind starving man who cannot smell he never finds food, but if given the ability to smell he finds it and takes it. He is not forced, but he is drawn by his hunger if given the ability to smell. I believe God calling/draw works something like that. We are not forced. We are simply given the ability to find and receive what we are craving.
So as I said I do believe that we all have free will at birth, but because of our fallen nature it always will lead to eternal death (hell) for the non-elect and those who are regenerated will accept so that they can accept the truth and become sons and daughters of God by exercising their free will.
lastly, I would add this. I hear some use the term "born again" as a precursor to salvation. I believe that is incorrect. I believe the proper term should be regeneration, not the new birth. I believe that they are two separate and different events. Regeneration being the given ability to respond to the call/draw of God, the ability to exercise our free will to that call/draw, and new birth being that which happens at salvation due to our repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. I see that as the new birth.
I do not believe that we are made alive in the sense of the indwelling Spirit before we are saved. If we are it would mean some lost, yet to be saved, elect, are walking around with the indwelling Spirit who are still in our sin until we are actually saved, and I do not believe that.
As I said I am open to correction, but at this point this is where I stand. Thank you for the reply. God bless
That’s a very good question Judith
1. We know from the scriptures that creation was good, very good (Genesis)
2. We know from scripture that God has created vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor (Romans)
3. Adam and Eve had true free will before the fall
4. We know that Christ was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the earth.
The question then becomes how did God decree the fall?
Was God totally hands off? Some suggest this; however, that leaves chance and fate (which in the grand scheme of things absolutely nothing ie there is truly no such thing). So this is a fallacy
Did God decree part of the fall? Ok,? what part/s did He decree vs Non-Decree? Scripture never addresses that scenario, so it too is a fallacy
Did God decree all things concerning the Fall? The answer is yes. Nothing happens in which God did not decree it so, or else He is not God.
Scripture tells us in many places that God rules over His Creation including the affairs of men or in Daniel, we see a King eating like the beasts of the field. Why? Because God decreed it.
so, since the fall election should be seen as an act of Gods love towards some resulting in Salvation.
In other, we see that they were not elect unto Salvation ie They are left to their own sin resulting in damnation. Ex here is God saying that He raised up Pharaoh in order to exalt Himself.
So the answer is Yes. God chose (elected) to save A & E when He rejected their own fig leaves and provided them skins. We see at that point that they were elected to salvation as a result of Gods mercy and grace
salvation is exactly that, God doing for us what we cannot do ourselves. That is why the new birth that Jesus talks about in John 3 is imperative for salvation (the new birth leads to repentance and faith by Gods people which is why they are called Grace Gifts)
God could have and should have condemned them to hell (just as He should all of us); however, He has chosen to redeem a remnant unto Himself. We should understand (my opinion) that the New Birth and the resulting Faith and Repentance are gifts from God and result from Gods election of His people.
I would encourage you to read the 1689 On the Decrees of God. It will probably state it better here Than I did.
I hope this helps
