The Sovereign will of God

[Marooncat79]

Dead men can’t do anything. They are dead- spirituallu

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are not drowning, we were dead. Not mostly dead, but truly dead. Until God did something to us we had no hope

that something is regeneration.

what can a dead man do? Ephesians 2:1

You are drowning, and in effect you are dead. because Unless you are rescued You will suffer the fate of death because you can not save yourself.

you are spiritually dead, Not physically dead. as long as you are physically alive you are able to make the decision to say yes to Gods salvation or reject it.

You can not be made alive in sin. Why you keep insisting a person can be regenerated while he is under the penalty of sin boggles my mind..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dead men can’t do anything. They are dead- spirituallu

lol they can still think, they can still be drawn, and through general revelation (rom 1) and the word make a choice to stop drowning and allow the rescuer to save them. even the lost KNOW they are judged and guilty. The only thing God has to do is convince them to trust him like he has so many people.

The tax collector got on his knees because he repented. Not because God rose him from the dead

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, Adam had a choice.
The second question is more metaphysical and philosophical … like Schrödinger's cat. Adam did eat the fruit, so questions about whether God COULD have allowed history to unfold differently are forever “hypothetical”. Adam DID eat it (so the cat IS dead).

If Adam had no choice (God MADE Adam sin), then God is the author of sin (contrary to scripture) … is that your claim?
God created a situation knowing that Adam would ultimately choose sin … thus Christ would redeem mankind for our good and His glory.

And once again the calvinist conveniently forgets that for them God determines all things that happen. This is their "as if" way of thinking. God has decreed from all eternity, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatever comes to pass; AS IF at the same time He does not decree all things. They want to have their decree and not have their decree at the same time.

You try put the "author of sin" problem on the non-calvinist when it is the calvinist theology that brings that claim to light. You use language such as "God created a situation" when what your theology requires is that God determined/decree that Adam would sin.

 

[Silverhair]

There's no difference in meaning.

FYI they do have different meanings.

from
Indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts.

Indicating the date at which something was created.

before
During the period of time preceding a particular event or time.

During the period of time preceding (a particular event or time)

 

[Silverhair]

You're going to get a lot of weirdo stuff in response to this question. But let's just take it as it is.

Did God let the Devil into the Garden? Yes.

Did He know what the outcome would be? Yes.

How could this not have been according to God's purposes in election?

You were doing fine until you added the words "in election".

 

[Silverhair]

As he was then corrupted by the lie of the Serpent, he could not bring forth good fruit.

And according to calvinism Adam could not do otherwise. So God made Adam sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

FYI they do have different meanings.

from
Indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts.

Indicating the date at which something was created.

before
During the period of time preceding a particular event or time.

During the period of time preceding (a particular event or time)

did I read correct that he said there is no difference??

 

[Marooncat79]

There is a verse “He hath made us alive”

words like “by His own mercy”

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done”

biblical words like mercy and grace and bondage

again Paul writes in Romans 10. How can we call upon Him whom we have not believed?

Paul is making the case for regeneration preceding Faith. Amongst many other verses

 

[Marooncat79]

“And we, not of ourselves”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is a verse “He hath made us alive”

words like “by His own mercy”

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done”

biblical words like mercy and grace and bondage

again Paul writes in Romans 10. How can we call upon Him whom we have not believed?

Paul is making the case for regeneration preceding Faith. Amongst many other verses

no paul is not making the case.

Paul is making the case that NNE will be justified apart from faith.

Hence by definition. No one can be made alive in Christ (regenerated) unless they have faith first.

Jesus also told us HOW to be bor again in John 3. By looking to the cross in faith. Then and ONLY then are we born again (given life eternal)

 

[Silverhair]

I do not think that this is what scripture teaches.

• [Proverbs 21:1 NASB95] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
  
• [Ezekiel 36:26 NASB95] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
  
• [Romans 9:15-16 NASB95] 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

The bible does teach that man has to make real choices.

Pro 21:3 To do righteousness and justice Is desired by the LORD more than sacrifice.

Eze 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These are all volitional acts, man has to make the decision it is not made for him.

 

[Silverhair]

If faith is left up to my own devices and power then it is a work and I do not really need God

I am in bondage to myself and not to sin

Then according to you the bible got it wrong.

Faith is not a work. God has placed a condition on salvation. That condition is faith in Christ Jesus.
We see the conditional salvation from the beginning with Abraham.
Gen_15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Abraham's faith was not a work but it was something that he had to do. God did not do it for him did He?
In the NT we see this same righteousness can be ours through faith.

Rom_3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

And what do they believe?
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Now lest you think that I am talking about some form of works/merit for salvation let us look at
Gal_2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Paul tells us in plain language that those that trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom_10:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

But you may ask why would they call on the Lord but Paul anticipated that question and provided the answer
Rom_10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?

So we see that the order of salvation is clearly shown in scripture.
Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation

Faith is not a work it is not merit it does not even save us but it is the condition of our salvation. We are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith in Christ Jesus. Salvation is Gods' gift to us and we praise Him for it.
Eph_2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Silverhair]

We are not drowning, we were dead. Not mostly dead, but truly dead. Until God did something to us we had no hope

that something is regeneration.

what can a dead man do? Ephesians 2:1

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Notice they have to hear they have to believe then God saves them. That is not a hard thing to understand unless you are looking at it through your theological lens.
God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is because of our faith in Christ Jesus that God saves the sinner.

If, as you say, they were "Not mostly dead, but truly dead." then they would have to be very lively corpses
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

The context does not support your view now does it?

 

[Silverhair]

did I read correct that he said there is no difference??

Yes that is what he said see post # 25

 

[Silverhair]

There is a verse “He hath made us alive”

words like “by His own mercy”

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done”

biblical words like mercy and grace and bondage

again Paul writes in Romans 10. How can we call upon Him whom we have not believed?

Paul is making the case for regeneration preceding Faith. Amongst many other verses

I did a search in the KJV for the quote “He hath made us alive” sorry not there but I did find these
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Eph_1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Which actually fits quite well with another quote you made “Not by works of righteousness which we have done”.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Because of your theological viewpoint you require a person to be born again/saved before they can believe. The bible does not support that view but rather it is something that you have to read into the bible.

What was the mission that Paul was given by Christ?
Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Paul was to preach the gospel message to the lost so that they could believe. Salvation comes to expression when the sinner repents, is cleansed from sin, and takes his place among those who obtain their spiritual inheritance through faith in Christ.

 

[Marooncat79]

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Notice they have to hear they have to believe then God saves them. That is not a hard thing to understand unless you are looking at it through your theological lens.
God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is because of our faith in Christ Jesus that God saves the sinner.

If, as you say, they were "Not mostly dead, but truly dead." then they would have to be very lively corpses
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

The context does not support your view now does it?

Romans 10

yes, the preaching/reading of the Gospel/Bible is the means God uses to bring it about

no argument here

 

[Ziggy]

SILV: "I did a search in the KJV for the quote “He hath made us alive” sorry not there"

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" — same thing.

 

[Marooncat79]

I did a search in the KJV for the quote “He hath made us alive” sorry not there but I did find these
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Eph_1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Which actually fits quite well with another quote you made “Not by works of righteousness which we have done”.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Because of your theological viewpoint you require a person to be born again/saved before they can believe. The bible does not support that view but rather it is something that you have to read into the bible.

What was the mission that Paul was given by Christ?
Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Paul was to preach the gospel message to the lost so that they could believe. Salvation comes to expression when the sinner repents, is cleansed from sin, and takes his place among those who obtain their spiritual inheritance through faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-5

 

[Silverhair]

SILV: "I did a search in the KJV for the quote “He hath made us alive” sorry not there"

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" — same thing.

And He makes alive those that believe as you can see from the rest of the post. Why do you ignore the rest of the post?