"Election"

So you really do not believe that God is sovereign as you limit what He has done so as to fit your philosophy. By your own words you have put yourself over the clear text of the bible "I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly," So all those that trusted the clear text of the bible, which is the vast majority, are lost because they did not interpret it correctly, the Calvinist way? Lodic do just a bit of research and you will find that Augustine brought his Gnostic philosophy into the church and Calvin just carried it on. Calvinism destroys the character of God as it makes people question the honesty of His word.

 

If you think God giving man a free will somehow would impact His sovereignty then you have a low opinion of God and His sovereignty.

 

This is a false accusation. You have created a hypothetical "free-will" theory and then demand that God has done so and thus must be Sovereign in your hypothetical scenario.
You demand from God what He has not granted and then you demand His Sovereignty over what He has not done.

You have not even interpreted any scripture. You have used eisegesis, not exegesis, to create a theory not actually expressed in the Bible. You force your presupposition into Bible sentences where you can manipulate the text to mean what your philosophy demands.

Rarely do you ever interpret scripture correctly. Instead you impose your philosophy on the text via eisegesis, not exegesis.

Then, you ramble on about Calvin and Augustine as gnostics when you are actually ignorant of their Biblical observations. At best, it seems you have read some article that made a claim about Calvinism and gnosticism that is purely bogus. I already provided an article talking about neo-gnosticism and Calvinism, showing that it has nothing to do with Calvin or Augustine. Therefore, your accusations are once again empty of any merit and are therefore spurious comments on your part. In short, your words are meaningless.

 

And there is the difference. I trust what the bible says and you trust what Calvinism says.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, Brother. Please explain how my view limits God's sovereignty. I probably didn't explain myself very clearly. To rephrase what I meant, proper interpretation of Scripture reveals that the doctrines Reformed Theology (aka Calvinism) are sound. Could you elaborate on why you believe Calvinism is a Gnostic philosophy? Until you brought it up, I've never heard of this accusation. From reading your previous posts, I believe you know Scripture very well, so you must have reasons for your views.

All that being said, this makes for an interesting discussion. However, I don't see where it makes much difference in our Christian walk. A person isn't lost or saved based on his views of Predestination or Election. I do not believe that "non-Calvinists" are lost, and I hope you don't believe that a person is lost because of his "Calvinist" views. When either of us witness to the Lost, we show them their need of the Savior. This is a "secondary" issue, much like different views of the "End Times" or different views of the Gifts of the Spirit are secondary. Too often these secondary issues divide us.

 

I agree God does use means but for the Calvinist it really makes no difference, remember you think that He picked all the saved ones out before creation. Do you think that He got it wrong and that you guys have to give Him a hand? If their saved before creation how can they not be saved now?

 

Have you read your bible lately. God is telling man he has to make choices all the time. Now why don't you show me the verses that says God can not give man a free will.

 

Austin you depend on outside articles to support your errant view and then you deny clear scripture that shows you are wrong in your theology.

Your determinism is just a fancy word for fate. You have to hope that God actually picked you as you have zero way of really knowing if He did. Remember everything you do has been determined so you are lost in that view with no way of proving that it is true.

 

My apologies for butting in, but I thought I should point out that the Calvinist knows that he has been "picked" just as surely as the Arminian does. As Jesus said in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." We are further assured in 1 John 5:13 - "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

Not butting in, it is a discussion board. While the Calvinist thinks they were picked out/saved before the foundation of the world that idea is only supported by their misreading of Ephesians 1:4. The only time someone is saved is when they are "in Him" and the only time you are in Him is when you believe. No one is in Him before the foundation of the world. We are saved in time not in eternity.

The non-calvinist does not think they were "picked" in the Calvinist sense. The bible tells us that when we believe the gospel message we will be saved. Ephesians 1:13 We are saved by God because we believe Ephesians 2:8 not so that we will believe.

So while I agree with the verses you have posted, you are wrong in equating believing so as to be saved with the Calvinist idea of saved so that you will believe.

Calvinist Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

The Calvinist has put the card before the horse.

 

So you trust your good friend rather than the bible. Well that explains a lot.