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"Election"

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Contrary to your opinion, Brother, Calvinism is not a Gnostic philosophy. I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly, proves the doctrines of Election and Predestination to be sound. To repeat something I said earlier, I think you confuse "free will" with the ability to make everyday choices. Do you think that Calvinists believe God gives us every thought and decision. If so, you are mistaken, sir. Everyone - lost and saved - make choices all the time. However, the lost are unable to choose to call upon Christ as their Savior.

So you really do not believe that God is sovereign as you limit what He has done so as to fit your philosophy. By your own words you have put yourself over the clear text of the bible "I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly," So all those that trusted the clear text of the bible, which is the vast majority, are lost because they did not interpret it correctly, the Calvinist way? Lodic do just a bit of research and you will find that Augustine brought his Gnostic philosophy into the church and Calvin just carried it on. Calvinism destroys the character of God as it makes people question the honesty of His word.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God is absolutely totally sovereign. If man can act to any degree independently of God, then to that degree man would be sovereign and God would not be sovereign to that degree. I reject such an idea. If that not makes me not a "Calvinist", then that is fine with me, as I don't particularly like being called a "Calvinist".

If you think God giving man a free will somehow would impact His sovereignty then you have a low opinion of God and His sovereignty.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
But Ken I have to ask why do you think that "preaching, teaching, and spreading the gospel of Christ is so important" if God has determined those that will be saved and this was done before the foundation of the world

God uses means.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
If you think God giving man a free will somehow would impact His sovereignty then you have a low opinion of God and His sovereignty.

You say that but you can't back it up with Scripture. It is just your man-centered philosophy you are espousing that trusts in man's ability and not in God's power.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
So you really do not believe that God is sovereign as you limit what He has done so as to fit your philosophy. By your own words you have put yourself over the clear text of the bible "I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly," So all those that trusted the clear text of the bible, which is the vast majority, are lost because they did not interpret it correctly, the Calvinist way? Lodic do just a bit of research and you will find that Augustine brought his Gnostic philosophy into the church and Calvin just carried it on. Calvinism destroys the character of God as it makes people question the honesty of His word.
This is a false accusation. You have created a hypothetical "free-will" theory and then demand that God has done so and thus must be Sovereign in your hypothetical scenario.
You demand from God what He has not granted and then you demand His Sovereignty over what He has not done.

You have not even interpreted any scripture. You have used eisegesis, not exegesis, to create a theory not actually expressed in the Bible. You force your presupposition into Bible sentences where you can manipulate the text to mean what your philosophy demands.

Rarely do you ever interpret scripture correctly. Instead you impose your philosophy on the text via eisegesis, not exegesis.

Then, you ramble on about Calvin and Augustine as gnostics when you are actually ignorant of their Biblical observations. At best, it seems you have read some article that made a claim about Calvinism and gnosticism that is purely bogus. I already provided an article talking about neo-gnosticism and Calvinism, showing that it has nothing to do with Calvin or Augustine. Therefore, your accusations are once again empty of any merit and are therefore spurious comments on your part. In short, your words are meaningless.
 

Lodic

Well-Known Member
So you really do not believe that God is sovereign as you limit what He has done so as to fit your philosophy. By your own words you have put yourself over the clear text of the bible "I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly," So all those that trusted the clear text of the bible, which is the vast majority, are lost because they did not interpret it correctly, the Calvinist way? Lodic do just a bit of research and you will find that Augustine brought his Gnostic philosophy into the church and Calvin just carried it on. Calvinism destroys the character of God as it makes people question the honesty of His word.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, Brother. Please explain how my view limits God's sovereignty. I probably didn't explain myself very clearly. To rephrase what I meant, proper interpretation of Scripture reveals that the doctrines Reformed Theology (aka Calvinism) are sound. Could you elaborate on why you believe Calvinism is a Gnostic philosophy? Until you brought it up, I've never heard of this accusation. From reading your previous posts, I believe you know Scripture very well, so you must have reasons for your views.

All that being said, this makes for an interesting discussion. However, I don't see where it makes much difference in our Christian walk. A person isn't lost or saved based on his views of Predestination or Election. I do not believe that "non-Calvinists" are lost, and I hope you don't believe that a person is lost because of his "Calvinist" views. When either of us witness to the Lost, we show them their need of the Savior. This is a "secondary" issue, much like different views of the "End Times" or different views of the Gifts of the Spirit are secondary. Too often these secondary issues divide us.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God uses means.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I agree God does use means but for the Calvinist it really makes no difference, remember you think that He picked all the saved ones out before creation. Do you think that He got it wrong and that you guys have to give Him a hand? If their saved before creation how can they not be saved now?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You say that but you can't back it up with Scripture. It is just your man-centered philosophy you are espousing that trusts in man's ability and not in God's power.

Have you read your bible lately. God is telling man he has to make choices all the time. Now why don't you show me the verses that says God can not give man a free will.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
This is a false accusation. You have created a hypothetical "free-will" theory and then demand that God has done so and thus must be Sovereign in your hypothetical scenario.
You demand from God what He has not granted and then you demand His Sovereignty over what He has not done.

You have not even interpreted any scripture. You have used eisegesis, not exegesis, to create a theory not actually expressed in the Bible. You force your presupposition into Bible sentences where you can manipulate the text to mean what your philosophy demands.

Rarely do you ever interpret scripture correctly. Instead you impose your philosophy on the text via eisegesis, not exegesis.

Then, you ramble on about Calvin and Augustine as gnostics when you are actually ignorant of their Biblical observations. At best, it seems you have read some article that made a claim about Calvinism and gnosticism that is purely bogus. I already provided an article talking about neo-gnosticism and Calvinism, showing that it has nothing to do with Calvin or Augustine. Therefore, your accusations are once again empty of any merit and are therefore spurious comments on your part. In short, your words are meaningless.

Austin you depend on outside articles to support your errant view and then you deny clear scripture that shows you are wrong in your theology.

Your determinism is just a fancy word for fate. You have to hope that God actually picked you as you have zero way of really knowing if He did. Remember everything you do has been determined so you are lost in that view with no way of proving that it is true.
 

Lodic

Well-Known Member
You have to hope that God actually picked you as you have zero way of really knowing if He did. Remember everything you do has been determined so you are lost in that view with no way of proving that it is true.
My apologies for butting in, but I thought I should point out that the Calvinist knows that he has been "picked" just as surely as the Arminian does. As Jesus said in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." We are further assured in 1 John 5:13 - "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
And there is the difference. I trust what the bible says and you trust what Calvinism says.

How you get from me saying "that God did it and I give Him all the glory for it" to "you trust what Calvinism says" is a mystery to me.
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KenH

Well-Known Member
I agree God does use means but for the Calvinist it really makes no difference

I guess that means, based on your description of a Calvinist, that I am not a Calvinist nor a follower of Calvin, so you should stop calling me a Calvinist.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
My apologies for butting in, but I thought I should point out that the Calvinist knows that he has been "picked" just as surely as the Arminian does. As Jesus said in John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." We are further assured in 1 John 5:13 - "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Not butting in, it is a discussion board. While the Calvinist thinks they were picked out/saved before the foundation of the world that idea is only supported by their misreading of Ephesians 1:4. The only time someone is saved is when they are "in Him" and the only time you are in Him is when you believe. No one is in Him before the foundation of the world. We are saved in time not in eternity.

The non-calvinist does not think they were "picked" in the Calvinist sense. The bible tells us that when we believe the gospel message we will be saved. Ephesians 1:13 We are saved by God because we believe Ephesians 2:8 not so that we will believe.

So while I agree with the verses you have posted, you are wrong in equating believing so as to be saved with the Calvinist idea of saved so that you will believe.

Calvinist Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

The Calvinist has put the card before the horse.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Not butting in, it is a discussion board. While the Calvinist thinks they were picked out/saved before the foundation of the world that idea is only supported by their misreading of Ephesians 1:4. The only time someone is saved is when they are "in Him" and the only time you are in Him is when you believe. No one is in Him before the foundation of the world. We are saved in time not in eternity.

The non-calvinist does not think they were "picked" in the Calvinist sense. The bible tells us that when we believe the gospel message we will be saved. Ephesians 1:13 We are saved by God because we believe Ephesians 2:8 not so that we will believe.

So while I agree with the verses you have posted, you are wrong in equating believing so as to be saved with the Calvinist idea of saved so that you will believe.

Calvinist Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

The Calvinist has put the card before the horse.

God's elect were justified in HIs sight before the world began. The following is from a small book by Bill Parker, a good friend of mine, on When Are God's People Justified in His Sight? (When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf (b5z.net)) :

"JUSTIFICATION IN ETERNITY

As stated, this is the view that God’s elect have always been justified IN HIS SIGHT, even before the foundation of the world. And even though they all fell in Adam into sin and death, and because of their sin, they deserve and have earned nothing but God’s wrath, God has always viewed and accepted them in Christ as their Representative, Surety, Substitute, Redeemer, and Mediator. They are the subjects of an eternal and everlasting covenant of grace made between God the Father and God the Son before the foundation of the world. God chose them by His sovereign grace, gave them to Christ and from the beginning placed all responsibility for their salvation and eternal well-being upon Christ. They are (and have always been) “the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23). They are recipients of a salvation that was given to them “in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9). They are the “election of grace” (Romans 11:5), and grace has always reigned “through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:21).

Some object to this view because they argue that if this is true, God’s elect do not need to be saved, and it was not, therefore, necessary for Christ to come and die for their sins. They also conclude that if God’s elect were all justified in His sight from eternity that it is, therefore, not necessary for them to be born again and brought to faith in Christ. As stated above, it is true that there are some who hold a view of eternal justification that leads them to fatalism in denying God’s appointed means to bring all whom He has chosen and justified to complete salvation. But this is not Scriptural. First, eternal justification does not mean that God’s elect “have always been saved” in the sense of never having been lost in their sins. Justification before God is only one realm of salvation.1 God’s elect are not, in essence, born saved. They are born lost in their sins. And even though God has marked them out for salvation and has always viewed them in Christ, they are naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as enemies of and alienated from God. So, not only do God’s elect need to be justified before God, they also need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and glorified together with Christ. God’s people need to be saved because they are all sinners who deserve eternal damnation and who are born lost in their sins. It is true that in eternity God has been reconciled to them by the cross of Christ, but the redemption price must be paid for them by Christ, and they also must be reconciled to God by God-given faith in Christ. In fact, the Bible states that, as fallen in Adam and naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, there is no difference between the vessels of mercy and the children of wrath."
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God's elect were justified in HIs sight before the world began. The following is from a small book by Bill Parker, a good friend of mine, on When Are God's People Justified in His Sight?(When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf (b5z.net)) :

"JUSTIFICATION IN ETERNITY

As stated, this is the view that God’s elect have always been justified IN HIS SIGHT, even before the foundation of the world. And even though they all fell in Adam into sin and death, and because of their sin, they deserve and have earned nothing but God’s wrath, God has always viewed and accepted them in Christ as their Representative, Surety, Substitute, Redeemer, and Mediator. They are the subjects of an eternal and everlasting covenant of grace made between God the Father and God the Son before the foundation of the world. God chose them by His sovereign grace, gave them to Christ and from the beginning placed all responsibility for their salvation and eternal well-being upon Christ. They are (and have always been) “the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23). They are recipients of a salvation that was given to them “in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9). They are the “election of grace” (Romans 11:5), and grace has always reigned “through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:21).

Some object to this view because they argue that if this is true, God’s elect do not need to be saved, and it was not, therefore, necessary for Christ to come and die for their sins. They also conclude that if God’s elect were all justified in His sight from eternity that it is, therefore, not necessary for them to be born again and brought to faith in Christ. As stated above, it is true that there are some who hold a view of eternal justification that leads them to fatalism in denying God’s appointed means to bring all whom He has chosen and justified to complete salvation. But this is not Scriptural. First, eternal justification does not mean that God’s elect “have always been saved” in the sense of never having been lost in their sins. Justification before God is only one realm of salvation.1 God’s elect are not, in essence, born saved. They are born lost in their sins. And even though God has marked them out for salvation and has always viewed them in Christ, they are naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins as enemies of and alienated from God. So, not only do God’s elect need to be justified before God, they also need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and glorified together with Christ. God’s people need to be saved because they are all sinners who deserve eternal damnation and who are born lost in their sins. It is true that in eternity God has been reconciled to them by the cross of Christ, but the redemption price must be paid for them by Christ, and they also must be reconciled to God by God-given faith in Christ. In fact, the Bible states that, as fallen in Adam and naturally born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, there is no difference between the vessels of mercy and the children of wrath."

So you trust your good friend rather than the bible. Well that explains a lot.
 
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