Whosoever - John 3:16

[37818]

There is another word used 6 times in the NT which is translated 'election,' ekloge. According to Bagster's Analytical Greek Lexicon, it means, 'the aggregate of those who are chosen, the elect' (Romans 11:7)..

In time.

 

[AustinC]

Were you "in Christ" before you believed?

From God's perspective...yes.

From my experience...no.

My belief was an effect of God's ordained cause when he chose me before the foundation of the world and called me at his perfect time.

 

[Silverhair]

From God's perspective...yes.

From my experience...no.

My belief was an effect of God's ordained cause when he chose me before the foundation of the world and called me at his perfect time.

So you admit that it is not you that believes but rather it is God that is supposed to have made you believe. So I have to agree with 37818 that what you said is informative. It's informative, but not biblical.

The bible is clear that it is the person that has to believe, as in, hear the gospel and believe the gospel and God saves. It's really not that complicated if you just trust the bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In time.

What does that mean? Will you answer my questions in time? I hope so.

 

[37818]

What does that mean? Will you answer my questions in time? I hope so.

You have 6 verses.
2 Peter 1:10, ". . . Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." Can only be done in one's time.
Then there is this,
Romans 11:5, ". . . Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

So you admit that it is not you that believes but rather it is God that is supposed to have made you believe.

*Ephesians 2:4-5*

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

*John 10:25-28*

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So I have to agree with 37818 that what you said is informative. It's informative, but not biblical.

Yet, I just shared two passages from the Bible that clearly tell us that God does the work, not you.

The bible is clear that it is the person that has to believe, as in, hear the gospel and believe the gospel and God saves.

*John 10:25-28*

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

*John 10:4*

When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

It's really not that complicated if you just trust the bible.

I agree. You need to trust the Bible, Silverhair. It's not complicated if you believe the Bible and read that God is the cause of your salvation.

Why you fight against scripture is an odd thing for being a Christian.

 

[Silverhair]

*Ephesians 2:4-5*

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

*John 10:25-28*

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.


Yet, I just shared two passages from the Bible that clearly tell us that God does the work, not you.



*John 10:25-28*

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

*John 10:4*

When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.


I agree. You need to trust the Bible, Silverhair. It's not complicated if you believe the Bible and read that God is the cause of your salvation.

Why you fight against scripture is an odd thing for being a Christian.

Austin first we have to look at the verses that you posted Ephesians 2:4-5 and John 10:25-25 and John 10:4.

Did I say the God did not save one that believes, NO. What you just posted confirms what I said. God saves those that believe and they believe because they have heard the gospel and believed the message. Ephesians 1:13 And we know that God by His grace saves because of ones faith Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 and again in Romans 10:13.

Austin you have missed the clear teaching of scripture, Christ’s sheep are those that believe in Him. You work to hard at denying scripture, if you spent half as much effort on learning what the scriptures actually teach you would see that your philosophy of Calvinism has failed.

So I agree God saves those that believe, but you still continue to deny this clear fact of scripture. Why is the Austin?

 

[AustinC]

Austin first we have to look at the verses that you posted Ephesians 2:4-5 and John 10:25-25 and John 10:4.

Did I say the God did not save one that believes, NO. What you just posted confirms what I said. God saves those that believe and they believe because they have heard the gospel and believed the message. Ephesians 1:13 And we know that God by His grace saves because of ones faith Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 and again in Romans 10:13.

Austin you have missed the clear teaching of scripture, Christ’s sheep are those that believe in Him. You work to hard at denying scripture, if you spent half as much effort on learning what the scriptures actually teach you would see that your philosophy of Calvinism has failed.

So I agree God saves those that believe, but you still continue to deny this clear fact of scripture. Why is the Austin?

You keep attempting to give spiritually dead persons the capacity to will themselves to believe. Nowhere does God ever indicate that dead men are saved by their free will. Yet, that is your constant mantra.

How long until you accept this phrase..."But God..."

God is the cause agent no matter how much you deny it, Silverhair.

I would be a fool to follow your man-centered philosophy.

 

[37818]

. . . spiritually dead persons the capacity to will themselves to believe . . .

Luke 8:13, ". . . They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

Luke 8:13, ". . . They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."

Let me get this straight. You are building your theology on a parable while ignoring the theological teachings of the epistles???

*Luke 8:9-15*

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

Who determines where the seed is sowed? Who determines determined what the soil is like?

Ultimately, is God not sovereign? Is he just all knowing, but he is passively watching?

 

[Silverhair]

You keep attempting to give spiritually dead persons the capacity to will themselves to believe. Nowhere does God ever indicate that dead men are saved by their free will. Yet, that is your constant mantra.

How long until you accept this phrase..."But God..."

God is the cause agent no matter how much you deny it, Silverhair.

I would be a fool to follow your man-centered philosophy.

Mat_21:32 "For G1063 John G2491 came G2064 (G5627) to G4314 you G5209 in G1722 the way G3598 of righteousness G1343 , and G2532 you did not G3756 believe G4100 (G5656) him G846; but G1161 tax collectors G5057 and G2532 harlots G4204 believed G4100 (G5656) him G846; and G1161 when you G5210 saw G1492 (G5631) it, you did not G3756 afterward G5305 relent G3338 (G5675) and believe G4100 (G5658) him G846.

1Co_1:21 For G1063 since G1894, in G1722 the wisdom G4678 of God G2316, the world G2889 through G1223 wisdom G4678 did not G3756 know G1097 (G5627) God G2316, it pleased G2106 (G5656) God G2316 through G1223 the foolishness G3472 of the message preached G2782 to save G4982 (G5658) those who believe G4100 (G5723).

1Pe_2:7 Therefore G3767, to you G5213 who G3588 believe G4100 (G5723), He is precious G5092; but G1161 to those who are disobedient G544 (G5723), "The stone G3037 which G3739 the builders G3618 (G5723) rejected G593 (G5656) Has become G3778 G1096 (G5675) G1519 the chief G2776 cornerstone G1137,"

Jud_1:5 But G1161 I want G1014 (G5736) to remind G5279 (G5658) you G5209, though you G5209 once G530 knew G1492 (G5761) this G5124, that G3754 the Lord G2962, having saved G4982 (G5660) the people G2992 out of G1537 the land G1093 of Egypt G125, afterward G1208 destroyed G622 (G5656) those who did not G3361 believe G4100 (G5660).


Now Austin I realize that you do not want to admit that your theology is wrong. But you have to stop denying the scriptures. Now I am sure you will say that the sinners condemn themselves because of their choices but if you continue to hold to that view then you have to say that those that trust in God also do it by their own choice.

The bible is clear that whether you accept or reject the Lord, it is you doing it. All are in the active voice, which means it is the subject is the doer or performer of the action. Not God, He saves those the trust and condemns those that do not. Trust the bible not your philosophy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have 6 verses.
2 Peter 1:10, ". . . Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." Can only be done in one's time.
Then there is this,
Romans 11:5, ". . . Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . . ."

2 Peter 1:10. One can only make certain of one's calling and election in time, but that does not mean at all that one's election is not in eternity. 'Calling' and 'election' are effectively synonyms, since in the Greek they share one definite article. God chose His elect in eternity (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; cf. Jeremiah 31:3; Titus 1:1) and called them in time (Galatians 1:15-16).

Romans 11:5. The remnant exists now, but the election of grace was in eternity.

There is also 1 Thessalonians 1:4. 'Knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.' This became apparent to Paul when he preached the Gospel (v.5) because the Gospel came with great power and the Holy Spirit. Those God elects in etenity, he calls irresistible in time.

 

[AustinC]

Mat_21:32 "For G1063 John G2491 came G2064 (G5627) to G4314 you G5209 in G1722 the way G3598 of righteousness G1343 , and G2532 you did not G3756 believe G4100 (G5656) him G846; but G1161 tax collectors G5057 and G2532 harlots G4204 believed G4100 (G5656) him G846; and G1161 when you G5210 saw G1492 (G5631) it, you did not G3756 afterward G5305 relent G3338 (G5675) and believe G4100 (G5658) him G846.

1Co_1:21 For G1063 since G1894, in G1722 the wisdom G4678 of God G2316, the world G2889 through G1223 wisdom G4678 did not G3756 know G1097 (G5627) God G2316, it pleased G2106 (G5656) God G2316 through G1223 the foolishness G3472 of the message preached G2782 to save G4982 (G5658) those who believe G4100 (G5723).

1Pe_2:7 Therefore G3767, to you G5213 who G3588 believe G4100 (G5723), He is precious G5092; but G1161 to those who are disobedient G544 (G5723), "The stone G3037 which G3739 the builders G3618 (G5723) rejected G593 (G5656) Has become G3778 G1096 (G5675) G1519 the chief G2776 cornerstone G1137,"

Jud_1:5 But G1161 I want G1014 (G5736) to remind G5279 (G5658) you G5209, though you G5209 once G530 knew G1492 (G5761) this G5124, that G3754 the Lord G2962, having saved G4982 (G5660) the people G2992 out of G1537 the land G1093 of Egypt G125, afterward G1208 destroyed G622 (G5656) those who did not G3361 believe G4100 (G5660).


Now Austin I realize that you do not want to admit that your theology is wrong. But you have to stop denying the scriptures. Now I am sure you will say that the sinners condemn themselves because of their choices but if you continue to hold to that view then you have to say that those that trust in God also do it by their own choice.

The bible is clear that whether you accept or reject the Lord, it is you doing it. All are in the active voice, which means it is the subject is the doer or performer of the action. Not God, He saves those the trust and condemns those that do not. Trust the bible not your philosophy.

LOL, your copy and paste is funny!

I know you cannot see how your verses (I think they are verses) prove you wrong.

Silverhair, either you think:
1) humans will themselves to believe
or you think:
2) God wills humans to believe.

Which one do you think is true?

 

[37818]

Let me get this straight. You are building your theology on a parable while ignoring the theological teachings of the epistles???

Not at all. Epistemology comes before theology. Theology comes before its soteriology.

 

[37818]

One can only make certain of one's calling and election in time, but that does not mean at all that one's election is not in eternity. 'Calling' and 'election' are effectively synonyms, since in the Greek they share one definite article.

All that means, they apply to that one individual.
Matthew 22:14, ". . . πολλοι γαρ εισι κλητοι ολιγοι δε εκλεκτοι . . . ." ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ."

 

[37818]

. . . that does not mean at all that one's election is not in eternity.

Again a distinction is found in Mark 13:20, ". . . the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, . . ." Now it is explicit the choosing of those who become the elect was before the creation of mankind in Ephesians 1:4, this distinction is actually found in Mark. Based on Matthew 22:14, that election takes place in time for the elect. Being the few from many. With God it is in eternity, with man, the election is in time.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, your copy and paste is funny!

I know you cannot see how your verses (I think they are verses) prove you wrong.

Silverhair, either you think:
1) humans will themselves to believe
or you think:
2) God wills humans to believe.

Which one do you think is true?

Austin you are just proving that you really are ignorant of the bible. You are so convinced that your failed theology is correct that you will deny scripture when it is right in front of you. Those verses are from the NKJV with Strong's Numbers + TVM.

So by your logic, as shown by your own words, God wills the vast majority of humanity to reject Him and this in spite of the fact the bible disagrees with you 1Timothy 1:3-4.

Is God forgetful or is He just disingenuous. Or is the truth of the matter the fact that you would rather hold to your philosophy than trust what the bible teaches?

The text is clear, those that trust do so because they want to trust and those that reject do so because they want to do so. But the option you choose is that God causes man to accept or reject Him. Your view is not biblical.

 

[Reformed1689]

Based on Matthew 22:14, that election takes place in time for the elect.

No, that doesn't say that at all and you have yet to show how it does.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

All that means, they apply to that one individual.

'Your' in 2 Peter 1:10 is plural.

Matthew 22:14, ". . . πολλοι γαρ εισι κλητοι ολιγοι δε εκλεκτοι . . . ." ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ."

There is a 'general call' that goes out to all men. Mark 1:15; Acts of the Apostles 17:30. It is also seen in Romans 3:22 in the traditional (majority) text: 'Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, to all and upon all who believe.....' The Gospel goes out to all, but is effective only for those who believe.'
But there is also a particular, effective call to God's elect people, which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit with conviction (eg. 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5) and awakes the spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Again a distinction is found in Mark 13:20, ". . . the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, . . ." Now it is explicit the choosing of those who become the elect was before the creation of mankind in Ephesians 1:4, this distinction is actually found in Mark. Based on Matthew 22:14, that election takes place in time for the elect. Being the few from many. With God it is in eternity, with man, the election is in time.

What are you saying here? Certainly man 'chooses' God in time, when the Holy Spirit acts upon him (see above), but all Mark 13:20 is saying is that God chooses His elect (chosen) people. You have not persuded me that God's choosing and electing are two different things or that they happen at different times.; I don't see how they can be.

 

[37818]

'Your' in 2 Peter 1:10 is plural.

Yes, but the calling and election are in the singluar.

What are you saying here? Certainly man 'chooses' God in time, when the Holy Spirit acts upon him (see above), but all Mark 13:20 is saying is that God chooses His elect (chosen) people. You have not persuded me that God's choosing and electing are two different things or that they happen at different times.; I don't see how they can be.

Fine, don't be persuaded. I am.