Whosoever - John 3:16

[Silverhair]

I like Bill Mounce on this verse as he breaks down the Greek. Clearly @Van is incorrect in his translation. But, Mounce also tells us that John is not emphasizing or even speaking to election in this verse.

My Greek Verse of the Day is a screencast vlog that I will be doing weekly at first. I will take a well-known Bible verse, read it, translate it, and then phrase it. Finally, I will include some comments about its meaning or significance. In John 3:16 I will be talking about the meaning of οὕτως, and that it can’t mean “so much” as in the traditional translations. I will also talk about the πᾶς and the fact that it is indefinite. The promises of John 3:16 are available to each and every person (πᾶς) in the entire world (κόσμος) who does in fact believe. There is no inherent limitation in the “all” (“whosoever,” KJV); the limitation is in the modifying clause.
Greek Verse of the Week: John 3:16 | billmounce.com

I agree that John is not speaking about election, he is speaking about salvation that is available to anyone in the world.

I copied out the relevant section.
6:00 okay going back over to

6:02 john 3 16 then you can see that we have

6:05 exactly the same construction you could

6:08 also go back to cosmond {κόσμον,G2889} and see how

6:10 cosmon is used

6:12 in john actually in the whole new

6:14 testament

6:15 it doesn't refer to the elect okay i'm

6:18 reformed but cosmond does not refer to

6:21 the elect it's the whole world
6:24 and
6:25 what this means is that anyone who's in

6:28 the world who believes in him will in

6:31 fact not perish but will in fact have

6:34 eternal life so whatever your

6:35 theological possession please don't read

6:38 it into the greek pos is indefinite

6:40 cosmon is inclusive of all people
6:44 the limitation is and now people would

6:46 agree with this unless you're against

6:48 the universalist but any individual who

6:50 believes in him okay whether he's elect

6:53 or not leave that aside that's not what

6:55 john is talking about here anyone who

6:57 believes in him the fact of the matter

 

[AustinC]

I agree that John is not speaking about election, he is speaking about salvation that is available to anyone in the world.

I copied out the relevant section.
6:00 okay going back over to

6:02 john 3 16 then you can see that we have

6:05 exactly the same construction you could

6:08 also go back to cosmond {κόσμον,G2889} and see how

6:10 cosmon is used

6:12 in john actually in the whole new

6:14 testament

6:15 it doesn't refer to the elect okay i'm

6:18 reformed but cosmond does not refer to

6:21 the elect it's the whole world
6:24 and
6:25 what this means is that anyone who's in

6:28 the world who believes in him will in

6:31 fact not perish but will in fact have

6:34 eternal life so whatever your

6:35 theological possession please don't read

6:38 it into the greek pos is indefinite

6:40 cosmon is inclusive of all people
6:44 the limitation is and now people would

6:46 agree with this unless you're against

6:48 the universalist but any individual who

6:50 believes in him okay whether he's elect

6:53 or not leave that aside that's not what

6:55 john is talking about here anyone who

6:57 believes in him the fact of the matter

Nothing in the verse states that everyone can believe. You are using eisegesis again to force your philosophy on the text. That is not what Mounce did and the transcript bears this out.

I would agree that anyone in the world may potentially believe as God has already chosen them before the foundation of the world. But, neither your assertion nor my assertion is explicitly stated in John 3:16. This is why all scripture is studied.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing in the verse states that everyone can believe. You are using eisegesis again to force your philosophy on the text. That is not what Mounce did and the transcript bears this out.

I would agree that anyone in the world may potentially believe as God has already chosen them before the foundation of the world. But, neither your assertion nor my assertion is explicitly stated in John 3:16. This is why all scripture is studied.

"as God has already chosen them before the foundation of the world" Austin you have just proven that you read into the text what you need to find, that is called eisegesis.

Mounce agreed with the bible and said that anyone could be saved, whereas your failed theology say only a select few will be saved. So sorry there Austin your philosophy looses again.

 

[Reformed1689]

But, Mounce also tells us that John is not emphasizing or even speaking to election in this verse.

Exactly

 

[37818]

GotQuestions is not going to be my source of scholarship here.

I assume there should be an explicit Biblical teaching at issue or an interpretion that for another reason takes precedence over something they taught.

Context ". . . And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . . ."
The cross reference of it being an invitation, from Numbers 21:8-9, ". . . when he looketh upon it, shall live. . . ."

The subjects of the verse are God and everyone who believes.

 

[Silverhair]

Exactly

Well since your version of election is not biblical, ie "elect before the foundation of the world" then why would you expect Mounce to say that is in Joh 3:16?

it doesn't refer to the elect okay i'm
6:18 reformed but cosmond does not refer to
6:21 the elect it's the whole world
6:24 and
6:25 what this means is that anyone who's in
6:28 the world who believes in him will in
6:31 fact not perish but will in fact have
6:34 eternal life

But he does say that salvation is available to anyone in the world not just the Calvinist pre-selected ones.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Mounce agreed with the bible and said that anyone could be saved, whereas your failed theology say only a select few will be saved.

Anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God will be saved.. The emphasis is on Christ as the object of belief. I believe I'll have a beer later on tonight, but that belief isn't going to help me!
But I don't understand why you think this versee is going to help you in your increasingly frantic crusade against Calvinism.; it simply doesn't address the issue..

 

[kyredneck]

And what do you think this verse means
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

John 18:20 fits perfectly.

 

[AustinC]

I assume there should be an explicit Biblical teaching at issue or an interpretion that for another reason takes precedence over something they taught.

I take an actual Greek scholar and expert in hermeneutics over GotQuestions. com

 

[AustinC]

"as God has already chosen them before the foundation of the world" Austin you have just proven that you read into the text what you need to find, that is called eisegesis.

Mounce agreed with the bible and said that anyone could be saved, whereas your failed theology say only a select few will be saved. So sorry there Austin your philosophy looses again.

I am not reading it into that text. I am reading it in Ephesians 1:3-4 which is specifically talking to that issue. John is not concerned with that point here in John 3:16.
You are proving my assertion that you do not bring all of scripture into your theology. Thus you fail to discern the truth of God's revelation to you.

 

[37818]

I am not reading it into that text. I am reading it in Ephesians 1:3-4 which is specifically talking to that issue.

That passage speaks of God's choosing not the election of His elect.

 

[AustinC]

That passage speaks of God's choosing not the election of His elect.

You are attempting to make a distinction where there is none.
Choosing is election. Election is choosing.

 

[37818]

You are attempting to make a distinction where there is none.
Choosing is election. Election is choosing.

Two related words. In the translation I am using, only one of the two is sometimes translated "elect." Not εξελεξατο. But εκλεκτοι is.

 

[AustinC]

Two related words. In the translation I am using, only one of the two is sometimes translated "elect." Not εξελεξατο. But εκλεκτοι is.

They still mean the same thing. Elect and choose are synonymous.

 

[Reformed1689]

That passage speaks of God's choosing not the election of His elect.

That's the same thing.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not reading it into that text. I am reading it in Ephesians 1:3-4 which is specifically talking to that issue. John is not concerned with that point here in John 3:16.
You are proving my assertion that you do not bring all of scripture into your theology. Thus you fail to discern the truth of God's revelation to you.

Wow you post the video by Mounce and then disagree with what he said. I can see why your a Calvinist, you just change what ever you like so that it suits your view at that time.

 

[Silverhair]

You are attempting to make a distinction where there is none.
Choosing is election. Election is choosing.

If you hold to that view you are going to have some serious problems with the bible. But then again you already do have serious problems with the bible, your theology does not fit with the bible text.

 

[Silverhair]

That's the same thing.

So your now promoting universalism.

 

[37818]

They still mean the same thing. Elect and choose are synonymous.

That's the same thing.

No, they are not. One happened before the creation of mankind, Ephesians 1:3-4. The "election" takes place in the believers life time, Matthew 22:14.

 

[AustinC]

No, they are not. One happened before the creation of mankind, Ephesians 1:3-4. The "election" takes place in the believers life time, Matthew 22:14.

No

*Ephesians 1:3-6*

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

*Matthew 22:11-14*

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In Matthew 22, Jesus is showing us that only those whom God gives the wedding garment are allowed into the feast. The person in the parable tried to get in on their terms without having been given the garment. They had not been chosen and thus they were rejected.

You are attempting to compare two passages, but you have missed Jesus point.