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Conditional election.

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AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
The written word of God nowhere teaches that the elections take place before the foundation of the world.
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Since chose and elect are synonyms, I point out that you are wrong.

*Ephesians 1:3-4*

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

*Romans 8:29-30,33*

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

You are desperately trying to split a hair that is not and has never been split. You are refusing to recognize Jesus teaching and you will not accept your own election as having happened far before you were ever born so that God is truly Sovereign and Supreme over your existence.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Marooncat79 said:
Which Greek verb means to mark out before hand in Koine?

I await your response
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Marooncat79 said:
Which Greek verb means to mark out before hand in Koine?

I await your response
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I am glad you asked. I did a search of G1586 and it is only used 20 times {NASB}. Luke 9:35 shows us that Christ is the Chosen One.

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one’s self
1a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
1b) choosing one for an office
1c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
1c1) i.e. the Israelites
1d) of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (Jas_2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense)

Eph 1:4 just as He chose G1586 us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

You should be asking who are the "us" that Paul is writing about in this verse. For that we need to look back to Ephesians 1:1 "...To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus"

Those that are in Him are those that have trusted in Him for salvation. The persons faith is what makes them fit for salvation.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Since chose and elect are synonyms, I point out that you are wrong.

*Ephesians 1:3-4*

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

*Romans 8:29-30,33*

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

You are desperately trying to split a hair that is not and has never been split. You are refusing to recognize Jesus teaching and you will not accept your own election as having happened far before you were ever born so that God is truly Sovereign and Supreme over your existence.
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None of those verses work for you Austin. Ephesians 1:1-4
Who are the "us" that Paul is writing to and what is he telling them?
For the "us" just look back to verse 1 "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus" and for the what "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love". He is telling the Ephesian saints that they were chosen not the you were chosen.

Romans 8:29-30

It says it right in the text, God foreknew who would come to trust in His son, He did not cause them to trust in His son. You have to read that into the text or ignore the rest of the bible. Remember Ephesians 1:13-14 or Romans 1:16 or Romans 10:9-10.

Romans 8:33

I fully agree that it is God that justifies. And He does so for those that trust in His son.
Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal_2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

So you see that faith is not a work as you have claimed before. I keep telling you to trust in the bible but you do not seem to want to do that. Why I do not know but I do hold out hope that you will come into the light.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
You should be asking who are the "us" that Paul is writing about in this verse. For that we need to look back to Ephesians 1:1 "...To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus"

Those that are in Him are those that have trusted in Him for salvation. The persons faith is what makes them fit for salvation.
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Only if you isolate that verse and ignore the rest of the context.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
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All that is the fruit of election. When did one become one of Gods elect ? Was it not before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
So you think that the Holy Spirit {God} got it wrong. Oh the arrogance of you.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
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Your statement doesnt make sense at all.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
How and when did God choose people unto Salvation ?
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Good question.

To be in Christ, per Ephesians 1:4-6, ". . . before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. . . ."
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
That's not what the word foreknew means in this context. This is not a foreknowledge of an event, this is a choosing. You isolate words and ignore contex.t
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You are reading into the text what you want to find rather than reading the text as it is.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Good question.

To be in Christ, per Ephesians 1:4-6, ". . . before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. . . ."
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So we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. But...we were elect at what time?

I honestly don't see how you make a distinction that God never makes so I need you to very clearly explain the timeline for election as you reject it taking place before the foundation of the world.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Only in the context of Paul's OTHER writings that say the faith itself is a gift and not of the person. Otherwise, faith most certainly is a work.
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Amen, that's exactly correct ! If faith or believing is a product of the natural man, and not the gift of faith/believing wrought by the work of God the Spirit Jn 6:29, then its a work, its in fact law keeping Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Good question.

To be in Christ, per Ephesians 1:4-6, ". . . before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. . . ."
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I cant say the same for your reply, again when did God choose His People in Christ ? Are people in Christ before the foundation of the world ?
 
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