Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

Matthew 22:14 and 2 Peter 1:10. Ephesians 1:4 actually says nothing about the elect.

 

You seem to gomm the birth from above and 'saved' together. They're NOT the same thing. And what I believe is as 'Baptist' as it gets.

 

We have already gone over this and you have been shown your error, though you seem unaware.

 

I proved that the calling and election are together. And you have actually proved not a thing.

 

The choosing and election are one and the same. The call of the elect happens when God creates them and then calls them.
*Jeremiah 1:4-5*

Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

 

You have proven nothing of the sort.


Pulling a case from another context does not make your case.

Does not change my claim, Matthew 22:14.

 

There are so many examples in the NT that corrects silverhair's error. No one can be saved, since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ without learning and trusting in his gospel because salvation is not a concept, it is a person. Salvation as it relates to the washing away of inherent sin is a NT proposition. It is in the blood of the one and only sacrificial Lamb of God, who is Jesus Christ. One must understand his sacrifice and also their own guilt before God, and they must trust him with the whole heart to be delivered from that guilt and be saved. The one thing that is the power of God unto salvation is the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is "the faith" of the NT. It involves God the Father who promises justification through him to anyone who will embrace him by faith and believe what God says he will do for us if and when we do. It involves the Spirit of God and of Christ who indwells the believer when he believes from the heart. It involves our Lord Jesus who became a man and lived a sinless life and then tasted death for all the guilty in a one time sacrifice of himself that God says propitiated him and made peace between himself and guilty sinners, all guilty sinners. Since he had no personal sins that could condemn him, God raised him from the dead and glorified him.
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

While all of this is true and God is not imputing personal sins to the account of sinners while they live in the body, he says, that is, since the cross and resurrection of Christ, it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgement. (He 9:27). If men who are alive since the cross and resurrection dies a physical death, which is the separation of body and soul, with his sins still on him, he will suffer the second death in the lake of fire, forever separated from and forgotten of God. Men must meet God in his image or he cannot meet God at all. What is his image? It is a trinity. Soul, body, and Spirit. This is why Jesus came as a man. He poured out his Spirit and died physically and spiritually on that cross, the blood that flowed from his body representing his physical life (the life of the flesh is in the blood), and the water that flowed from his pierced side representing the Spirit. (the Spirit is life - Rom 8). He poured out both and was separated from God for us. Yes, Jesus died both spiritually and physically for us.

While those sinners before the cross who had been justified and their believing what God said to them had been imputed to them for righteousness until the blood was shed that could wash their sins away, they could not enter into the presence of God and were kept by God in what he called "paradise" in the center of the earth, where the soul of Jesus himself went for the three days of his death and before he was resurrected bodily by the power of the Spirit.

1 Peter 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(did anyone get that? His body was made alive by the Spirit being in it. Now the soul and the Spirit is in the body and he is alive).

Few people gets this following.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Salvation is defined by the renewal to mankind of the trinitarian nature, the Spirit, who is God in us. (eternal presence of God = eternal life = Spirit of God in the body = same/same). But it is more than that. It is a birth into the family of God as his son. Our pattern in the flesh was Adam. Our pattern in the Spirit is Jesus.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (that is in the family of Adam and in the family of Christ)
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God at the same time and as such he can meet the demands of God for us.

Thinking in terms of humanity, Jesus Christ is, now get this, the FIRST begotten from the dead. He is not the only begotten like he was from the stable, he is the first begotten from the dead. This means there are many more who are born in the same manner and likeness of him. Isn't that what we are told?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son (remember the image is trinitarian), that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There has never been a man born spiritually as was Jesus until his resurrection, where he is said to be the firstborn son of God from the dead. The dead is where we all who are born again came from. We were dead because we did not have the Spirit of God dwelling in our bodies. That is not true now for those who have been born again.

But, what has this got to do with the error of silverhair? Well he is correct to say that all OT saints were "saved" by Jesus Christ but they were not saved by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and they were not "saved" when they believed. They were "justified" and their faith in what God said to them is the basis of their justification. However, they were not made sons of God like New Testament saints are. OT saints were justified and their faith in what God said to them was imputed to them for righteousness but they were not cleared of their sins until the blood was shed that could wash their sins away. I must prove this by two witnesses.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

If I understand silverhair, he thinks that people can be saved without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and believing it. If this is his teaching it is dead wrong. Why is this? Because our Lord Jesus worked to redeem us from sin and shed his blood from his body to wash our sins away and he poured out his Spirit, who is his life so we can be saved and presented to God at his house without spot or wrinkle. But we must understand that redemption is his work that he finished at his death on the cross.

Continued

 

Continued from above:

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

He did this so we may receive his life as a gift. The Spirit of life is the gift of God. He has poured him out from heaven in such abundance that any and all may open their mouths and drink him in. The operative principle of receiving him is by repentance of our sins against God, the offended party, and by believing his gospel, or good news, that he has done in his body everything that God requires of us and has imputed his righteousness to us in the person of the Holy Spirit, who at the same time is the agent of the new birth into his family.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

This negates completely silverhair's doctrine. The only way to get the son is by believing the record that God has given of him. He that has the life of the son, his Spirit, is same/same as having the son. This is the only way to have life.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (body & soul), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Soul, body, and Spirit).

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ti 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (the blood and water of the cross)
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

You are ignorant of what Matthew 22:14 is saying, but instead you pluck a sentence and create a theology from nothing that supports your assertion. You have been shown your error, yet you prefer your ignorance to truth. So be it.

 

It is not the only verse that traches what it teaches.

 

You pluck verses like those who know not the King. You, as a child of the King, ought not to be so undiscerning of God's word.

 

Revelation 17:14, ". . . they that are with Him are called, and | the elect | and faithful. . . ."

Matthew 20:16, ". . . for many be called, but few | the elect. | . . ."

 

Honestly, at what point do you intend or dare to study the passages instead of cherrypick sentences like the heathen do?
Tell me when you intend to honestly study God's word and we can have a meaningful discussion. As it is, I have seen atheists care more about context than you seem to care.

 

Read the passage and see that your verse does not make the point you wish to make.

*Revelation 17:1-14*

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

 

Notice that Matthew 20 has nothing that supports your assertion. Please have a little discernment.

*Matthew 20:1-16*

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denariusa day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.”

 

I think you have a bigger problem. And I cannot help you with it. See my latest post.

 

For all you that are commenting on what I have said here are a few questions for you.


1] Is God sovereign

2] Does God change

3] Are we told how one can be saved

4] Were people saved prior to the cross

5] Are we told that we can know God through creation

6] Are we saved by the name or by who the name refers to



When one turns to the God of all creation and seeks to know Him we are told that He can be found. Since we know that God desires all to come to Him and not all will hear the gospel message how can this apparent Gordian knot be undone.

The simple answer is trust God to know what He is doing. To see what He is doing we need to look at the information that He has provided for us, the bible.

Isaiah 45:21 there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

God is “a just God and a Saviour,” as a being who acts most stringently according to the demands of His holiness, and wherever His wrath is not wickedly provoked, sets in motion His loving will, which is ever concerned to secure the salvation of men. Keil & Delitzsch

Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

The first imperative is hortatory, {exhorting} the second promising Jehovah desires both, viz., the conversion of all men to Himself; and through this their salvation, ad this His gracious will, which extends to all mankind, will not rest till its object has been fully accomplished. Keil & Delitzsch


Who is God that is referenced in these verses it is the rock Isaiah 44:8. In the OT we find God referred to as: Lord H136 Jehovah H3069, Elohim H430 or Lord H136.

In the NT we see the incarnate God called: Christ G5547 Jesus G2424.
Christ = anointed, Jesus = Jehovah is salvation.

The question for you is how are we saved, by a name [Jehovah, Christ] or by the one that is called by that name? In other words are we saved by God or by the name of God.

As Paul tells us Christ is the one who made the world [Acts of the Apostles 17:24] so He is the one that Isaiah in referring to in Isaiah 45:21-22. The same one that we are told to seek and find because He is near to us all. Acts of the Apostles 17:27 The same one that desires all to come to Him and be saved 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Malachi 3:6 tells us that God does not change. The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. In the OT we see that man can and is expected to seek after God Isaiah 55:6, Jeremiah 29:13. What these passages tells is that everyone who truly seeks God will find Him because God makes Himself known in all of His creation.

Any sinner who fails to act on how God has revealed Himself to them, whether through creation or through their conscience will deserve the ‘just punishment’ for rejecting God.

Now I do not expect this to change anyone's mind but I would hope that you will understand what I am saying when I say man can be and some actually have been saved without hearing the gospel message. Do I deny the gospel message NO but I trust in a sovereign God to save all those that trust in Him.

 

This is your latest post and you have shared nothing from God's word that helps your assertion.