Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

[37818]

in God to provide the means for all people to come to know Him and be saved

By what means per God's word?

Those that honestly seek for the God of creation will be judged by the light they have not by whether they hear those words.

Jesus Himself is the true light, John 1:9. In the Judgement the determinate factor is one's name in the book of life, Revelation 20:15.

 

[canadyjd]

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 16

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

These were not 'saved' by deciphering from OT writings the formula for immortality, they were born from [Jerusalem] above, members of the everlasting covenant.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:8

Ok, I think I understand your point. You are saying more Gentiles are saved after the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, than OT Saints that were saved prior to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is that correct?

I thought you were saying more Gentiles were saved during the OT times than Jews.

That is most likely true, based on those passages, but it doesn’t really speak to whether the gospel is necessary for salvation. All Gentiles (and Jews) are saved by God through the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I fully understand what you teach and here I note that the verses you share have nothing to do with your theology.

No you do not. It has everything to do with my theology.
Explain how Mark 10:14-15 has to do with your theology?

. . . you imagine it supports your errant theology without comprehending your error and contradiction.

You know nothihg of the sort.
You accuse and explain nothing.

 

[canadyjd]

….

what I have to do is show that the possibility is there for someone to turn and be saved by God without hearing the gospel message…..

You have been given several passages of scripture which prove that to be false including John of Japan quoting John 14:6 where Jesus says no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed of God and you have repeatedly proven yourself to unworthy to give guidance in understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, I think I understand your point. You are saying more Gentiles are saved after the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, than OT Saints that were saved prior to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is that correct?

No. "Other sheep I have", not "other sheep I will have".

 

[AustinC]

No you do not. It has everything to do with my theology.
Explain how Mark 10:14-15 has to do with your theology?

You know nothihg of the sort.
You accuse and explain nothing.

*Mark 10:13-16*

And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Note that here Jesus indicates that not all are in the Kingdom. This refutes your implication that all are in the book of life until they reject God.
Second, God breaks our pride so that we are humbled to hear his voice, just as children listen to adults.
In this passage, however, the people were bringing the children to the one they hoped would be King of Israel and they were seeking the future Kings blessing. The disciples were indignant because they thought children were beneath a King.

So, these verses do nothing to support your errant theology.

 

[37818]

Note that here Jesus indicates that not all are in the Kingdom. This refutes your implication that all are in the book of life until they reject God.

In your mind. You still do not understand my view. And you have not explained how it is to be true in your view.

Second, God breaks our pride so that we are humbled to hear his voice, just as children listen to adults.

So to you it means humility is required to merit God's grace?

So, these verses do nothing to support your errant theology.

You really do not know. In the Judgement why would children, too young to have believed, have their names in the book of life? And adults who had died their names not there?

 

[canadyjd]

No. "Other sheep I have", not "other sheep I will have".

Ok, and when He calls them by name, they respond by following Him. Even though they are already His sheep (elect) they do not follow Him until He calls (effectual calling)

If you are saying they are saved prior to hearing the gospel, I disagree. They are elect, prior to hearing the gospel. Scripture is clear the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the means by which God brings salvation to His people.

peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Actually you are making false assumptions.
1] Why would it lead to universalism, the person still has to believe in the God of creation and not all do so no universalism
2] Did I say that we should not preach the gospel, NO.

But that is the logical conclusion of your position. In a logical syllogism,
1. People don't need to hear about Jesus to be saved.
2. Missionaries tell people about Jesus, but salvation comes without Jesus.
3. Therefore missionaries are useless and unneeded.

But unlike you I actually trust in God to provide the means for all people to come to know Him and be saved.

You are still not comprehending my position. I do trust in God to "provide the means for all people to come to know Him and be saved." Please, go back and read what I actually wrote in #41.

Why would you think your life has been a waste? Are we not told to preach the gospel?

Why in the world would you say this? I DON'T think my life has been a waste. That's my point. IF people can get saved without Christ, than the Great Commission is moot. It's useless. God will just save who He wants to without missionaries.

I often thank God for making me a missionary. It's a thrill to have served God overseas. I've preached the Gospel in six different countries, and that is an awesome privilege that I cherish.

The fact that you deny God the ability to save as He chooses is to say the least unfortunate.

Again, you are misrepresenting me. I did not say this, but said the exact opposite.

Not all will hear the gospel but all will be judged. Those that honestly seek for the God of creation will be judged by the light they have not by whether they hear those words.

Those who honestly seek God will find Him, as I have already said, only Scripture is clear that it has to be through the Gospel, not natural revelation.

Please, if someone can get saved without Jesus, tell me why Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

You are saying the opposite of Jesus. You are saying that people get saved without going to the Father through Jesus Christ. So is Jesus a liar?

 

[John of Japan]

@Silverhair. Can you give me a true illustration from the literature (missionary biographies, missiology books, etc.) of a single person who got saved without Jesus Christ, and gave a testimony of such an event?

Or have you been to a heathen nation and met such a person yourself? I'll be waiting.

I saw many Buddhists come to Christ in Japan. I talked to a former Taoist in Hong Kong and heard his testimony of being demon possessed until he trusted Christ as Savior. I preached in Bangladesh and saw Hindus and Muslims come to Christ. But in all of my years overseas, I have never one time talked to a single person who claimed a Christian salvation without Christ.

 

[AustinC]

In your mind. You still do not understand my view. And you have not explained how it is to be true in your view.

I understand and I have explained, but you are unable to hear or see.

So to you it means humility is required to merit God's grace?

By no means. No, God's work of redemption itself humbles us as one of the glorious effects of the cause.

You really do not know. In the Judgement why would children, too young to have believed, have their names in the book of life?

How do we know who is written in the book? God knows the many children whom he has ordained to die before they can conceive of right or wrong. God alone knows His grace or condemnation toward these young ones and neither you nor I are in any position to judge the choices of God the Creator.

And adults how had died their names not there?

Those who died in rebellion died so, never ever having had their name written into the Covenant book of life. Here you imagine all men to have their name written in that book when that is not so. If, for an instant, you were right, then Pelagius would be commended for his wise understanding, but you are wrong. Only the names of God's chosen children are written in the Covenant will of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin I do like those verses that you posted. They just prove my point, God can do as He pleases.

God does do what He pleases. 1 Corinthians 1:21.

Does He save some that have heard the gospel, yes but I note you do not deal with any of the scripture that shows God reaching out to all. {Post # 36}

I don't have to 'deal' with such verses - I preach them regularly! Once again you show tthat you haven't the faintest idea what Calvinism is, just a caricature out of your own mind.

Martin I have proved my point.

 

[37818]

I understand and I have explained, but you are unable to hear or see.

Your argument without Biblical support?

How do we know who is written in the book?

It is simple. Those whoes names are not in the book are lost.

God knows the many children whom he has ordained to die before they can conceive of right or wrong. God alone knows His grace or condemnation toward these young ones and neither you nor I are in any position to judge the choices of God the Creator.

It is simple. The lost do not have their names in the book.

Those who died in rebellion died so, never ever having had their name written into the Covenant book of life. Here you imagine all men to have their name written in that book when that is not so. If, for an instant, you were right, then Pelagius would be commended for his wise understanding, but you are wrong. Only the names of God's chosen children are written in the Covenant will of God.

So according to you no one can know one's name is in book.

 

[AustinC]

Your argument without Biblical support?

You may have memory loss since I have provided many documents and passages to show you your error.

It is simple. Those whoes names are not in the book are lost.

So, only those particular people God chose and elected before the foundation of the world.

It is simple. The lost do not have their names in the book.

Indeed, even from before the foundation of the world they were destined to perdition.

So according to you no one can know one's name is in book.

Did I say that?
I said that we are not given the list of those who are written into the Covenant book and will thus receive their inheritance.

By faith and by perseverance in faith, I stand with full assurance in Christ alone. I am comfortable in entrusting my soul to my Savior.

 

[Silverhair]

But that is the logical conclusion of your position. In a logical syllogism,
1. People don't need to hear about Jesus to be saved.
2. Missionaries tell people about Jesus, but salvation comes without Jesus.
3. Therefore missionaries are useless and unneeded.


You are still not comprehending my position. I do trust in God to "provide the means for all people to come to know Him and be saved." Please, go back and read what I actually wrote in #41.


Why in the world would you say this? I DON'T think my life has been a waste. That's my point. IF people can get saved without Christ, than the Great Commission is moot. It's useless. God will just save who He wants to without missionaries.

I often thank God for making me a missionary. It's a thrill to have served God overseas. I've preached the Gospel in six different countries, and that is an awesome privilege that I cherish.


Again, you are misrepresenting me. I did not say this, but said the exact opposite.

Those who honestly seek God will find Him, as I have already said, only Scripture is clear that it has to be through the Gospel, not natural revelation.

Please, if someone can get saved without Jesus, tell me why Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

You are saying the opposite of Jesus. You are saying that people get saved without going to the Father through Jesus Christ. So is Jesus a liar?

If you want to take the position that preaching the gospel is no longer needed than that is your choice. It is not what I said but then you are being a bit over the top with some of your comments and conclusions. That is why I said you were being angry and not very logical.



I have read your posts and you really do not accept the idea that God can be God and can save however He wishes. When God says one can seek and find Him then that is what it means. When one finds God do you think God just says that’s nice now go away. Do you not think finding God means trusting in Him and if one trust in Him do you not think God would save that person?



Here you are going over the top again. You seem to be afraid that your lives work will be of no import. That is not what I am saying so please relax. I trust that preaching the word of God is important but it is not the only way that God provides for man to know Him. You say on one hand that God can do what He pleases but then say but He can only do it this way that is a contradiction.



You hold that a man can only be saved one way whereas I do not. That is the divide. Is Jesus God, YES, have people trusted in Him through the revelation found in the bible yes, I am not questioning that. Who is the God of creation, Jesus, so when the bible tells us we can know this God of creation who would the be? If we reject this God of creation who are we rejecting? So no I am not making Jesus a liar.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair. Can you give me a true illustration from the literature (missionary biographies, missiology books, etc.) of a single person who got saved without Jesus Christ, and gave a testimony of such an event?

Or have you been to a heathen nation and met such a person yourself? I'll be waiting.

I saw many Buddhists come to Christ in Japan. I talked to a former Taoist in Hong Kong and heard his testimony of being demon possessed until he trusted Christ as Savior. I preached in Bangladesh and saw Hindus and Muslims come to Christ. But in all of my years overseas, I have never one time talked to a single person who claimed a Christian salvation without Christ.

I am glad to see that you have been able to lead people to faith in Christ Jesus. As for those type of books I do not read them so sorry can't help you. You are basing all your views on what you have done or read. That's fine. I base mine on reading the bible, which you disagree with so as I said there is the divide.

 

[Silverhair]

God does do what He pleases. 1 Corinthians 1:21.

I don't have to 'deal' with such verses - I preach them regularly! Once again you show tthat you haven't the faintest idea what Calvinism is, just a caricature out of your own mind.

Actually what I have posted about calvinism is the words from calvinism so it seems you are the one that does not understand calvinism. Just because you claim to preach on verses does not mean that you understand what the mean.

 

[AustinC]

*Romans 1:18-23*

But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

@John of Japan, you are correct and Sliverhair is wrong. How he can read scripture and deny it without blushing is hard to fathom. But, he is known to twist a yes to make it say no in his mind so who can tell how he comes up with his thoughts. Clearly they are thoughts that ignore context to construct arguments from straw.

I appreciate your words regarding the gospel. God chooses to redeem his children through the testimony of those already redeemed or through the direct words of scripture. He does not have a man look at nature and thus believe in the atoning work of our King. Indeed, that thought is foolishness to the one who has not been given the words of God in scripture. Observing nature alone each man will worship nature or the images man has created as an image to hold nature at bay. They will never find Jesus by looking only at nature just as God tells us in Romans 1.

 

[canadyjd]

….
You hold that a man can only be saved one way whereas I do not. That is the divide….

The “divide” is that you deny the clear teaching of scripture that the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the only way God has chosen to bring people to salvation.

Bottom line, you cannot reconcile your belief in a “true trust” gospel with the numerous passages of scripture that have been referenced proving the gospel is necessary for salvation, so you do not even try.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed by God and you have demonstrated you are unworthy to offer any guidance in understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

The “divide” is that you deny the clear teaching of scripture that the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the only way God has chosen to bring people to salvation.

Bottom line, you cannot reconcile your belief in a “true trust” gospel with the numerous passages of scripture that have been referenced proving the gospel is necessary for salvation, so you do not even try.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed by God and you have demonstrated you are unworthy to offer any guidance in understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. That you have such a limited view of God's sovereignty is something that you will have to deal with.