Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

[John of Japan]

God gives mankind a choice
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.
Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Here we see it plainly stated, God has revealed Himself within the heart of every man.
Rom_1:20a For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
Again, from the very start, the attributes of God are seen and know by every man.
Rom_1:20b being understood through what has been made,
Not just seen, but understood.
Rom_1:20c so that they are without excuse.
Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart, acceptance or rejection of these truths is his choice.
Rom_1:21a For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,
Man knows God but will deny all that points to God.
Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Man wants to control his own destiny without God

You are confusing special revelation with general revelation. There is nothing in general revelation, as Rom. 1 clearly teaches, that brings salvation. The Bible is extremely clear about that. The only name under Heaven which brings salvation is Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12). The world without Christ is bound in false religions, which cannot save. Would you say that Buddhism somehow can save? I await your answer with interest.

There is no other way to interpret these verses.

Don't act ignorant. There is the evangelical and orthodox way to interpret these verses, as you very well know.

Your interpretation completely leaves out the atonement of Jesus Christ as the sole way to Heaven. Therefore it is heterodox, not orthodox. And therefore all orthodox sources disagree with you.

If God had never revealed Himself, then man would indeed have a legal excuse when they stand before God. But note that man does have a choice either that or God is being disingenuous and man really has no way of knowing God.

This is true. So? One can know God through natural revelation, but then choose not to seek Him.

If God desires to let people know Him through other means then who are you to say that He is wrong. When the bible tells me that man will be held responsible for not knowing God then that tells me that God has provided the way for them to know Him. If that way had not been provided then none of the OT saints would have come to know God or to be saved as the gospel of Christ was not being preached then was it?

Here is what you are missing with this paragraph, and what happens in the lost heart.

(1) They can know God through His general revelation in nature (also called natural revelation). But there is no way to salvation there. The word "understood" in v. 20 is the Greek word noeo (νοέω), meaning to understand with the mind. However, the things of God are spiritually understood--not the same.
(2) The lost heathen may then seek God. The Bible says, "Seek and ye shall find" (Acts 7:7).
(3) If he does so with a desire to know the true God, then God will always, always, make a way for him to learn of Christ, who is the only way to salvation.

Books that show how this plays out in a practical way:
1. Bill Rice, Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa, wherein a pygmy in the central African jungle sought Christ, and God sent a cowboy preacher, a faithful missionary, and a native interpreter. A tremendous story! Full disclosure: Bill Rice was my great uncle, and the founder of the Bill Rice Ranch, the first American (perhaps worldwide) ministry to the deaf.
2. Don Richardson, Eternity in their Hearts. This is a ground-breaking book by a faithful missionary and missiologist, dealing with natural revelation in tribes around the world, and how the Gospel reached them. A really good read!

As regards the OT saints and their salvation, Christ was preached all through the OT, beginning with the protoevangelium.

I am always surprised at the number of "Christians" that deny God the ability to do as He pleases.

That's actually not the point here. God can absolutely do anything He pleases. However, He has chosen one specific, and only one, way to Heaven, and that is through faith in Christ and His death on the cross for our sins, and His resurrection. Of course God could save outside of that one path, but He chooses not to. The Bible is extremely clear about that.

 

[canadyjd]

Man you really do think your something, you say I do not deal with scripture that you did not post…

Why does it matter who references the scripture?

The fact is, those passages demonstrate the necessity of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for salvation your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed of God.

Your inability to address these passages in an intellectual way demonstrates you are unworthy to offer any guidance in understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Two texts for you.
Psalms 105:3. 'Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever pleases Him.'
1 Corithians 1:21. 'For since, in the wisdom of God the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what was preached to save those who believe.'
Indeed, God can do whatver He likes and save people anyway He likes, but what He likes is to save people through the preaching of His word.

And BTW, it was an anti-Calvinist rant. It's all you seem able to do, and that not very well..

Martin I do like those verses that you posted. They just prove my point, God can do as He pleases. Does He save some that have heard the gospel, yes but I note you do not deal with any of the scripture that shows God reaching out to all. {Post # 36} Why would He do that Martin? Do you think that God is just being dishonest when He says those that seek Him can know Him? Hebrews 11:6 Why would the Holy Spirit bother convicting mankind, what would it accomplish if it just made them know they were sinners. If they could not turn to the God of creation as Romans 1:20 would indicate that they can then why convict them?

Martin I have proved my point, what I have to do is show that the possibility is there for someone to turn and be saved by God without hearing the gospel message. You on the other hand must prove that it can never happen. The OT saints prove my case as they never heard the gospel but were saved and we even use them as examples of faith in the Lord. Are you going to tell me they were not saved?

Just because your errant theology has constructed this false narrative of salvation for only a select few and that before the foundation of the world does help your case. You do not appear willing to just trust in a loving God that actually wants to save all and has provided the means by which any man can turn and trust in Him.

As for my "anti-calvanist" rant as you call it, that is just me pointing out the errors and contradictions that are in that philosophical view. So if it makes you feel better to call it a rant go right ahead but the truth is the truth whether you like it or not.

 

[canadyjd]

So, is this the entire complete formula needed 'to go to heaven'? Isn't there a public confession that has to be made? No mention of that. What about baptism? Baptism is clearly included in the formula to be followed in order 'to go to heaven' in other places.



I don't see how OT Saints could have possibly gotten all those points of 'the formula' correct.

And what about the Gentiles, who had not the law (which supposedly contained the formula hidden within it, right?)? There were more saints among the OT Gentiles than there were the OT Jews. How did that happen?

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

First, I never referred to 1 Corinthians 15 as “the entire complete formula to get to heaven”. Paul gives a summary of the “gospel by which they were saved.” That focus is on Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

I do not believe water baptism is necessary for salvation. There are places that link baptism to salvation, and many that do not. I believe those references to baptism to refer to baptism of God Holy Soirit.

The OT Saints didn’t have to understand all the details (neither do we btw), but they responded to God’s special revelation by believing/faith in what God had revealed about the coming Messiah, per Hebrews 11.

Not sure what the Isa 54 passage says other than that salvation goes to the Gentiles as well.

You will need to show me from scripture that more OT Gentiles were saved than OT Jews.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Martin I do like those verses that you posted. They just prove my point, God can do as He pleases…...

You believe God can do as He pleases EXCEPT what scripture has declared pleases God concerning salvation…

1 Corinthians 1:21 “…for it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe”.

And again, Paul says in Galatians 1:8 “though we, or an Angel from heaven preach unto you ANY OTHER GOSPEL than the gospel we preached to you, let him be accursed” (emphasis mine).

Scripture declares your “true trust” gospel that excludes our Lord Jesus Christ to be a false gospel cursed of God.

Your “true trust” gospel renders the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ unnecessary. You make His atoning sacrifice of no effect. You push Him from His throne as the Author of our faith and replace Him with a man-centered “true trust” false gospel.

You views are exposed as contrary to scripture and worthy of being cursed of God.

You are unworthy to offer guidance on understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Silverhair has been confusing general (also called natural) revelation, as seen in nature, and special revelation, as seen in the Bible. Here are several quotes on the subject:

Baptist theologian Millard Erickson clearly delineated the difference between the two: “General revelation is God’s communication of himself to all persons at all times and in all places. Special revelation involves God’s particular communications and manifestations of himself to particular persons at particular times, communications and manifestation that are available now only by consultation of certain sacred writings” (Christian Theology, 2nd ed., 178).

In his Lectures in Systematic Theology, Henry Thiessen includes three things in general revelation: nature, history and conscience (pp. 32-35). He says this about general revelation: "This is found in nature, history, and conscience. It is communicated through the media of natural phenomena occurring in nature or the course of history'; it is addressed to all intelligent creatures generally and is accessible to all; it has for its object the supplying of the natural need of the man and the persuasion of the soul to seek after the true God" (p. 32). So natural revelation can encourage a heathen to seek after God, but it cannot save him.

"Nature does not give propositional truth. It gives data from which inferences are reasonably drawn." (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, ed. by Merrill Tenney, p. 721). But propositional truth is necessary for salvation.

 

[John of Japan]

Now, if Silverhair is correct, that people can be saved without the Gospel, I have two observations.
1. That can lead to universalism, and obviously negates the Great Commission.
2. So if Silverhair is right, I absolutely wasted 33 years of my life as a missionary to Japan. I could have been living just like I wanted to here in the homeland. And now for 8 years I've been wasting my life here at our Bible college and seminary teaching young people to be soul winning, church planting, Bible translating missionaries. What a waste, if people can get saved without the Gospel.

 

[37818]

Now, if Silverhair is correct, that people can be saved without the Gospel, I have two observations.
1. That can lead to universalism, and obviously negates the Great Commission.
2. So if Silverhair is right, I absolutely wasted 33 years of my life as a missionary to Japan. I could have been living just like I wanted to here in the homeland. And now for 8 years I've been wasting my life here at our Bible college and seminary teaching young people to be soul winning, church planting, Bible translating missionaries. What a waste, if people can get saved without the Gospel.

I am of the persuasion no one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ and it is not universalism. Those who are saved without believing the gospel such as little children who are too young to understand the hearing of the gospel to believe it. Any other exceptions would have to in some way fall into the category to be counted as if they were as little children. The bottom line - one's name must remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. I can see no other way.

 

[John of Japan]

I am of the persuasion no one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ and it is not universalism. Those who are saved without believing the gospel such as little children who are too young to understand the hearing of the gospel to believe it. Any other exceptions would have to in some way fall into the category to be counted as if they were as little children. The bottom line - one's name must remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. I can see no other way.

Preach it!

 

[AustinC]

I am of the persuasion no one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ and it is not universalism. Those who are saved without believing the gospel such as little children who are too young to understand the hearing of the gospel to believe it. Any other exceptions would have to in some way fall into the category to be counted as if they were as little children. The bottom line - one's name must remain in the book of life. Revelation 20:15. I can see no other way.

Do you see your contradiction here?

You teach the finished work of Christ completed for all humans (General Redemption). This, therefore, makes everyone saved (universalism).

Yet, you deny universalism.
You say "ones name must remain in the book of life." This means all humans start as universalists, but by their own actions they can make Jesus work "unfinished" and thus negate the work of Christ.

The result is that humans are the full determiner of their salvation. Moreso, in your view, it would be better to kill all humans in the womb so that they never had a chance to remove themselves from the book of life.

Yet, you would rightfully cry out "injustice" at that thought. This places us back at humans ruling over God and thwarting God's atonement that you declare happened universally, for all.

My guess is you still will be blind to what you are claiming and instead will say I "don't understand you." But, I have lived and walked your theology to its end point (a place you refuse to go at this moment). It is there where I fought with God as my ego demanded control even as God's word demanded my surrender to the determinative will of God in redeeming a particular people unto Himself who from before the foundation of the world were chosen and elect to be the children of God.

I write this in hope that you will see your contradiction, but also in hope that those who might read this would also see the contradiction of your position and utterly shun it as wrong theology that attempts to reduce the Supremacy of Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Silverhair]

You are confusing special revelation with general revelation. There is nothing in general revelation, as Rom. 1 clearly teaches, that brings salvation. The Bible is extremely clear about that. The only name under Heaven which brings salvation is Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12). The world without Christ is bound in false religions, which cannot save. Would you say that Buddhism somehow can save? I await your answer with interest.


Don't act ignorant. There is the evangelical and orthodox way to interpret these verses, as you very well know.

Your interpretation completely leaves out the atonement of Jesus Christ as the sole way to Heaven. Therefore it is heterodox, not orthodox. And therefore all orthodox sources disagree with you.


This is true. So? One can know God through natural revelation, but then choose not to seek Him.


Here is what you are missing with this paragraph, and what happens in the lost heart.

(1) They can know God through His general revelation in nature (also called natural revelation). But there is no way to salvation there. The word "understood" in v. 20 is the Greek word noeo (νοέω), meaning to understand with the mind. However, the things of God are spiritually understood--not the same.
(2) The lost heathen may then seek God. The Bible says, "Seek and ye shall find" (Acts 7:7).
(3) If he does so with a desire to know the true God, then God will always, always, make a way for him to learn of Christ, who is the only way to salvation.

Books that show how this plays out in a practical way:
1. Bill Rice, Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa, wherein a pygmy in the central African jungle sought Christ, and God sent a cowboy preacher, a faithful missionary, and a native interpreter. A tremendous story! Full disclosure: Bill Rice was my great uncle, and the founder of the Bill Rice Ranch, the first American (perhaps worldwide) ministry to the deaf.
2. Don Richardson, Eternity in their Hearts. This is a ground-breaking book by a faithful missionary and missiologist, dealing with natural revelation in tribes around the world, and how the Gospel reached them. A really good read!

As regards the OT saints and their salvation, Christ was preached all through the OT, beginning with the protoevangelium.

That's actually not the point here. God can absolutely do anything He pleases. However, He has chosen one specific, and only one, way to Heaven, and that is through faith in Christ and His death on the cross for our sins, and His resurrection. Of course God could save outside of that one path, but He chooses not to. The Bible is extremely clear about that.

John I must ask you where did you get the idea that I would think that man can be saved through Buddhism or any other false religion. The bible is clear that it is only through trust in the true God of creation that one can be saved.Isaiah 45:22 For you to come to the conclusion you have just shows you are reading in anger not with logic. Cool down and read what I wrote without all the fire.

Would you care to show me in these verses {Romans 1:18-21} where the atonement is even suggested? We see that man can know God and will be judged for his rejection of Him. You are reading to the text what you need to find.

John you are assuming that man can not understand that there is a God of creation without spiritual understanding but the bible disagrees with you on that. Really, do you think that bible is telling man that He can seek God but even if he finds Him that God would not save him. If so then why would God even bother telling man to seek Him? Isaiah 55:6, Isaiah 65:1 No logic in what you are saying.
I actually agree that God will provide a way for those seeking to know Him will be provided the means, whether through dreams or visions or even somehow hearing the gospel message.

If we are trusting in God for salvation (which is what “faith” means) then we cannot be trusting in ourselves. The moment we trust in ourselves we cease to trust in God.
Truly, I wonder why this is such a difficult concept for some to grasp
I do not believe that my faith saves me; rather, I believe that God saves those who trust in Him. To meet a condition is not the same as making a contribution to the conditional promise. It only means that the promise will not be fulfilled until the condition is met.
Therefore I firmly believe that salvation is of the Lord and rely on Him alone to save. Proverbs 3:5-7

God has had a plan for the salvation of a people for Himself from the beginning. We can look back from this side of the cross and find Christ in the OT but for those at the time salvation through a crucified & risen saviour was not, repeat not what they were looking forward to.

John I know how hard it is to accept the idea that God would actually save someone that has not heard the gospel message and I agree for those that do hear and reject it there is no other way. But the bible is clear that for those that seek God He will let Himself be found. I thank God that He is so loving and does not restrict Himself to what man thinks He should do.

Even to the Jews God said they could seek and find Him {Jeremiah 29:13} yet you deny this to all other people even though He says He will judge man for denying Him. Do you really think that the God who is LOVE would reject a sincere seeker just because he has not heard those words?

 

[Silverhair]

Why does it matter who references the scripture?

The fact is, those passages demonstrate the necessity of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for salvation your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed of God.

Your inability to address these passages in an intellectual way demonstrates you are unworthy to offer any guidance in understanding scripture or theology.

peace to you

That you will not even respond to the scripture that I posted shows that you really have no response.

Martin I have proved my point, what I have to do is show that the possibility is there for someone to turn and be saved by God without hearing the gospel message. You on the other hand must prove that it can never happen. The OT saints prove my case as they never heard the gospel but were saved and we even use them as examples of faith in the Lord. Are you going to tell me they were not saved?

That God does not fit into the mold you would like Him to fit is your problem. You want to restrict what God can do rather than trust in an Sovereign Lord. Why is that?

 

[JD731]

Justification is always by faith in what God reveals. When God justifies a man he will always be a just man. God is the judge of all the earth and contrary to what many want to believe, God desires to save men. I am going to give you an example from the scriptures of how God justifies a sinner, and counts him just, in spite of the fact he may fall into serious sin later. I will quote from 2 Peter 2.


7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

I assume you know the story of Lot and how he lost fellowship with Abraham, his testimony, his sanctification, his reputation, his influence with his family, his city, his wife, and his peace and fathered two nations from his two daughters while drunk who would be enemies of Israel to this very day, but he did not lose his justification before God. God called him 1) just, 2) righteous, 3) godly. This is how a sinner is delivered by the blood of Christ, which is the blood of the New Testament, having been justified by God and his faith imputed to him for righteousness. He knew nothing about the name of Jesus Christ and had believed nothing about the cross. He had believed what God said to him.

In John 6, Jesus said all who would come to him shall have eternal life. What he required of those to whom he spoke was that they believe two things about him. 1) that he is the Messiah of Israel who was promised in the OT, and 2) that he was the Son of God. If you study John's gospel you will find that everyone who was justified in his book had the same testimony that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God. It was the reason John said he wrote the book and included the 7 miracles. He said it here;


Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John stated what these Jews must believe during the time of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life. This is not the same thing that was required of Lot.

Now, here is the kicker; not a single person in John 6 believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and they confessed, even the 12 apostles and 70 elders, that they knew nothing about him having to die and rise again, and they did not believe it after it was told them. If this does not make my case then nothing will. That was not the subject of the preaching of Jesus Christ during his time on earth.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Verse 69 records the two things they must believe to be justified, and 11 out of the 12 believed it and were justified.


This truth that this justification was not by believing the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ will need to be proven, so bear with me here while I do it.

Matthew wrote:
16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark wrote:
9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke wrote
9:43 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John wrote
20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

All these verse above are in the last days of the ministry of Jesus on earth.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.



10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

The ministry of Jesus in the gospels was to preach "The Gospel of the Kingdom." Most people here do not even believe in a kingdom.

I challenge you to think differently and biblically and to forsake the blindness.

In the New Testament Jesus Christ IS our justification because he is in our bodies in the person of his Spirit. He is our righteousness.

 

[Silverhair]

Now, if Silverhair is correct, that people can be saved without the Gospel, I have two observations.
1. That can lead to universalism, and obviously negates the Great Commission.
2. So if Silverhair is right, I absolutely wasted 33 years of my life as a missionary to Japan. I could have been living just like I wanted to here in the homeland. And now for 8 years I've been wasting my life here at our Bible college and seminary teaching young people to be soul winning, church planting, Bible translating missionaries. What a waste, if people can get saved without the Gospel.

Actually you are making false assumptions.
1] Why would it lead to universalism, the person still has to believe in the God of creation and not all do so no universalism
2] Did I say that we should not preach the gospel, NO. But unlike you I actually trust in God to provide the means for all people to come to know Him and be saved.

Why would you think your life has been a waste? Are we not told to preach the gospel? The fact that you deny God the ability to save as He chooses is to say the least unfortunate. Not all will hear the gospel but all will be judged. Those that honestly seek for the God of creation will be judged by the light they have not by whether they hear those words.

 

[kyredneck]

I do not believe water baptism is necessary for salvation.

Well, you are talking about the possibility of spending infinity in torment if you get it wrong, right? So surely God's not going to hold it against you if you do extra stuff here on earth to make certain all your eyes are dotted, and your tees are crossed.

 

[37818]

Do you see your contradiction here?

You teach the finished work of Christ completed for all humans (General Redemption). This, therefore, makes everyone saved (universalism).

Yet, you deny universalism.
You say "ones name must remain in the book of life." This means all humans start as universalists, but by their own actions they can make Jesus work "unfinished" and thus negate the work of Christ.

The result is that humans are the full determiner of their salvation. Moreso, in your view, it would be better to kill all humans in the womb so that they never had a chance to remove themselves from the book of life.

Yet, you would rightfully cry out "injustice" at that thought. This places us back at humans ruling over God and thwarting God's atonement that you declare happened universally, for all.

My guess is you still will be blind to what you are claiming and instead will say I "don't understand you." But, I have lived and walked your theology to its end point (a place you refuse to go at this moment). It is there where I fought with God as my ego demanded control even as God's word demanded my surrender to the determinative will of God in redeeming a particular people unto Himself who from before the foundation of the world were chosen and elect to be the children of God.

I write this in hope that you will see your contradiction, but also in hope that those who might read this would also see the contradiction of your position and utterly shun it as wrong theology that attempts to reduce the Supremacy of Christ Jesus our Lord.

You do not understand. And you refuse to hear. There is no contradiction. There is no universalism. No one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ. Mark 10:14-15, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." That is why one otherwise must be as described to be born again. John 3:3-21.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, you are talking about the possibility of spending infinity in torment if you get it wrong, right? So surely God's not going to hold it against you if you do extra stuff here on earth to make certain all your eyes are dotted, and your tees are crossed.

My salvation is not dependent on what I do to please God. My salvation is a work of God from start to finish.

If salvation depended on me me “dotting “I”s and crossing “t”s, I would surely perish..

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

You will need to show me from scripture that more OT Gentiles were saved than OT Jews.

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 16

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

These were not 'saved' by deciphering from OT writings the formula for immortality, they were born from [Jerusalem] above, members of the everlasting covenant.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:8

 

[John of Japan]

John I must ask you where did you get the idea that I would think that man can be saved through Buddhism or any other false religion. The bible is clear that it is only through trust in the true God of creation that one can be saved.Isaiah 45:22 For you to come to the conclusion you have just shows you are reading in anger not with logic. Cool down and read what I wrote without all the fire.

I'm not the slightest bit angry at you! Where did you get that idea? However, I am passionate about reaching the world for Christ, and your position does not allow that. If people can be saved outside of Christ, than my 33 years on the mission field and 8 years teaching missions are wasted.

As to the Buddhism reference, everyone in the whole world has a religion. So how does someone get saved without Christ if they already have a religion that is leading them astray?

Would you care to show me in these verses {Romans 1:18-21} where the atonement is even suggested? We see that man can know God and will be judged for his rejection of Him. You are reading to the text what you need to find.

The atonement is not mentioned in that passage. Now, you tell me where salvation through natural revelation is mentioned in that passage.

John you are assuming that man can not understand that there is a God of creation without spiritual understanding but the bible disagrees with you on that. Really, do you think that bible bible is telling man that He can seek God but even if he finds Him that God would not save him. If so then why would God even bother telling man to seek Him? Isaiah 55:6, Isaiah 65:1 No logic in what you are saying.
I actually agree that God will provide a way for those seeking to know Him will be provided the means, whether through dreams or visions or even somehow hearing the gospel message.

I dealt with this. Why are you misrepresenting me???

If we are trusting in God for salvation (which is what “faith” means) then we cannot be trusting in ourselves. The moment we trust in ourselves we cease to trust in God.
Truly, I wonder why this is such a difficult concept for some to grasp
I do not believe that my faith saves me; rather, I believe that God saves those who trust in Him. To meet a condition is not the same as making a contribution to the conditional promise. It only means that the promise will not be fulfilled until the condition is met.
Therefore I firmly believe that salvation is of the Lord and rely on Him alone to save. Proverbs 3:5-7

I agree with this.

God has had a plan for the salvation of a people for Himself from the beginning. We can look back from this side of the cross and find Christ in the OT but for those at the time salvation through a crucified & risen saviour was not, repeat not what they were looking forward to.

They were looking for a Savior, repeat, a Savior, who would save the world. That is clear from the protoevangelium.

John I know how hard it is to accept the idea that God would actually save someone that has not heard the gospel message and I agree for those that do hear and reject it there is no other way. But the bible is clear that for those that seek God He will let Himself be found. I thank God that He is so loving and does not restrict Himself to what man thinks He should do.

It's impossible to accept because it is not Biblical. Jesus Christ said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). This could not be clearer.

Even to the Jews God said they could seek and find Him {Jeremiah 29:13} yet you deny this to all other people even though He says He will judge man for denying Him. Do you really think that the God who is LOVE would reject a sincere seeker just because he has not heard those words?

I deny this to "all other people"? "Reject a sincere seeker"? Did you not comprehend what I wrote about a sincere seeker? Please, if you are going to debate me, pay attention to what I actually write.

So, was my 33 years in Japan wasted because people can bed saved without the Gospel, in your opinion? And should I be teaching young people to be missionaries? They don't need us, they can get saved without a missionary, isn't that what you believe?

 

[AustinC]

You do not understand. And you refuse to hear. There is no contradiction. There is no universalism. No one is saved apart from the finished work of Christ. Mark 10:14-15, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." That is why one otherwise must be as described to be born again. John 3:3-21.

I fully understand what you teach and here I note that the verses you share have nothing to do with your theology. You simply quote them because you imagine it supports your errant theology without comprehending your error and contradiction. But, I knew you would be blind and deaf to what I shared, therefore my words are for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.