Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

[Silverhair]

God gives mankind a choice
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.
Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Here we see it plainly stated, God has revealed Himself within the heart of every man.
Rom_1:20a For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
Again, from the very start, the attributes of God are seen and know by every man.
Rom_1:20b being understood through what has been made,
Not just seen, but understood.
Rom_1:20c so that they are without excuse.
Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart, acceptance or rejection of these truths is his choice.
Rom_1:21a For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,
Man knows God but will deny all that points to God.
Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Man wants to control his own destiny without God

There is no other way to interpret these verses.
If God had never revealed Himself, then man would indeed have a legal excuse when they stand before God.

If Calvinism is true then man has an excuse
The Calvinist view actually gives every person who will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15) an EXCUSE. That is; God simply didn't choose them for heaven. When those chosen are just as UNWORTHY as those heading for the flames.
It's all based on the lottery. But since Romans 1:20 says that man has NO EXCUSE, it should be obvious to all that Calvinism cannot be correct. It actually gives the condemned an excuse.

The reason no one has an excuse is because God HAS revealed Himself to everyone. And everyone has a choice; to recognize God and be thankful to Him, or not.

 

[canadyjd]

How am I misrepresenting your beliefs? Do you not think your were elected before the foundation of the world? Do you not agree with this statement "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." by Loraine Boettner?…

I don’t know anything about Loraine Boether.

I believe what scripture says. So I will explain, AGAIN, how you are misrepresenting my beliefs.

Yes, the elect are chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. We are not saved prior to faith, but God Holy Spirit does regenerate the elect prior to faith. This supernatural intervention allows the person to understand the truth of the gospel and respond with faith which places them in a right relationship with God… salvation.

God has ordained the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the one and only means that people will be brought to salvation.

You reject the very idea that God, in His sovereignty, would ordain only one way, the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, to salvation.

You imagine God offering many ways to salvation apart from Jesus Christ, despite the clear teaching of scripture.

You claim to have a higher view of God’s love than I do, and yet, the bottom line is, you don’t think it’s “fair” that God would ordain only one way to salvation, so you apply your standard of fairness to God, ignoring scripture, and then claiming a higher view of God’s live to justify you false gospel of “true trust”

That should clear up the misrepresentation of my views, AGAIN, but I’m sure you will ignore what I have said, AGAIN, just as you ignore scripture in favor of your “true trust” gospel.

peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

It is heresy. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Ac 4:12).

One thing said sometimes by advocates of the position (even by Billy Graham once, I think) is that a heathen religion can have enough light to point someone towards God. As a former missionary to a Buddhist country, I have to say that heathen religions drive people away from God. There is no salvation anywhere but in Christ Jesus, who is called the Savior after all.

I have preached in a Muslim country, also, one of the poorest countries in the world. That's what Islam does--makes people poor. And it certainly does not get anyone closer to God.

Another thought along this line: If someone could get saved without Christ, then heathen religions (Buddhist, Muslim, animist, Hindu, etc.) would produce decent people. But they don't.

Christ uplifts people, but Satan puts them down. I could give many examples. It was Christians that defeated the African slave trade (David Livingstone, etc.). It was Christians who defeated suttee (sati) in India, the killing of the widow on the funeral pyre of the dead husband. It was missionaries who brought education to Japan. And so forth. Christ uplifts. Religion destroys.

We must not confuse general revelation (Romans 1) with special revelation (2 Timothy 3:16-17). People cannot be saved through general revelation, but only through special revelation about Jesus Christ--in other words, the Gospel.

 

[37818]

Yes, the elect are chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

But not the elects election. God's choosing in Christ is.

 

[canadyjd]

But not the elects election. God's choosing in Christ is.

I understand your position to be a general election of those that believe are then placed in Christ as “elect” I disagree, but that’s a question for another thread.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

 

[37818]

. . . your position to be a general election of those that believe are then placed in Christ as “elect” I disagree, but that’s a question for another thread.

No. But can be for another thread.

 

[Silverhair]

It is heresy. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Ac 4:12).

One thing said sometimes by advocates of the position (even by Billy Graham once, I think) is that a heathen religion can have enough light to point someone towards God. As a former missionary to a Buddhist country, I have to say that heathen religions drive people away from God. There is no salvation anywhere but in Christ Jesus, who is called the Savior after all.

I have preached in a Muslim country, also, one of the poorest countries in the world. That's what Islam does--makes people poor. And it certainly does not get anyone closer to God.

Another thought along this line: If someone could get saved without Christ, then heathen religions (Buddhist, Muslim, animist, Hindu, etc.) would produce decent people. But they don't.

Christ uplifts people, but Satan puts them down. I could give many examples. It was Christians that defeated the African slave trade (David Livingstone, etc.). It was Christians who defeated suttee (sati) in India, the killing of the widow on the funeral pyre of the dead husband. It was missionaries who brought education to Japan. And so forth. Christ uplifts. Religion destroys.

We must not confuse general revelation (Romans 1) with special revelation (2 Timothy 3:16-17). People cannot be saved through general revelation, but only through special revelation about Jesus Christ--in other words, the Gospel.

God gives mankind a choice
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.
Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Here we see it plainly stated, God has revealed Himself within the heart of every man.
Rom_1:20a For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
Again, from the very start, the attributes of God are seen and know by every man.
Rom_1:20b being understood through what has been made,
Not just seen, but understood.
Rom_1:20c so that they are without excuse.
Without excuse means what it says. Every man knows the eternal power of God deep in his heart, acceptance or rejection of these truths is his choice.
Rom_1:21a For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,
Man knows God but will deny all that points to God.
Rom_1:21b but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Man wants to control his own destiny without God

There is no other way to interpret these verses.
If God had never revealed Himself, then man would indeed have a legal excuse when they stand before God. But note that man does have a choice either that or God is being disingenuous and man really has no way of knowing God.

If God desires to let people know Him through other means then who are you to say that He is wrong. When the bible tells me that man will be held responsible for not knowing God then that tells me that God has provided the way for them to know Him. If that way had not been provided then none of the OT saints would have come to know God or to be saved as the gospel of Christ was not being preached then was it?

I am always surprised at the number of "Christians" that deny God the ability to do as He pleases.

 

[37818]

. . . a question for another thread.

God' choosing.

 

[Silverhair]

I don’t know anything about Loraine Boether.

I believe what scripture says. So I will explain, AGAIN, how you are misrepresenting my beliefs.

Yes, the elect are chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Yes, faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. We are not saved prior to faith, but God Holy Spirit does regenerate the elect prior to faith. This supernatural intervention allows the person to understand the truth of the gospel and respond with faith which places them in a right relationship with God… salvation.

God has ordained the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the one and only means that people will be brought to salvation.

You reject the very idea that God, in His sovereignty, would ordain only one way, the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, to salvation.

You imagine God offering many ways to salvation apart from Jesus Christ, despite the clear teaching of scripture.

You claim to have a higher view of God’s love than I do, and yet, the bottom line is, you don’t think it’s “fair” that God would ordain only one way to salvation, so you apply your standard of fairness to God, ignoring scripture, and then claiming a higher view of God’s live to justify you false gospel of “true trust”

That should clear up the misrepresentation of my views, AGAIN, but I’m sure you will ignore what I have said, AGAIN, just as you ignore scripture in favor of your “true trust” gospel.

peace to you

As long as you hold the TULIP or DoG if you call it that then you are denying scripture. You are teaching another gospel. You want people regenerated/saved before they even hear the gospel and even then it is not their faith but God has to give it to you or at least you hope He did.

You claim that God only wants a few select people saved and that before they even believe. I believe that God desires that all humanity would come to salvation, even those that may only know Him through creation, such is the love of God.

Where do you get this silly idea of God having to be "fair" that is just your calvinist construct. God does not have to be fair but He does have to be just, which is something your calvinist philosophy does not allow for Him to be.

I do find your comments funny at times. I quote calvinist doctrines and you say that is just me not understanding calvinism or it is a misrepresentation of your views. Well since you seem to want to distance yourself from calvinism then your right I really do not know what you believe, but I do not think it is scripture.

 

[Dave G]

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ( Mark 16:16 ).

The Lord Jesus tells us who will be saved and who will not be.
I think this should be enough to answer any questions as to where someone who does not believe on Christ ends up.

 

[canadyjd]

….

Well since you seem to want to distance yourself from calvinism then your right I really do not know what you believe, but I do not think it is scripture.

I explained to you, AGAIN, what I believe in post#22. Once again, you ignored what I said and attributed beliefs to me that I have specifically denied. You then claim you do not know what I believe, but insist it isn’t scripture despite not knowing what it is I believe.

Quite frankly, that is a stupid thing to say.

I supported my position that the gospel is necessary for salvation in my first post. Others have added scripture that further supports that truth.

Without any doubt, however, your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel condemned by scripture as being “cursed of God”.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ( Mark 16:16 ).

The Lord Jesus tells us who will be saved and who will not be.
I think this should be enough to answer any questions as to where someone who does not believe on Christ ends up.

I know this will surprise you but the bible is actually more one verse. Do you really think I do not know these verses are in the bible? I believe all of the bible not just the parts I like.

 

[canadyjd]

…I believe all of the bible not just the parts I like.

Wonderful!!!!

Please explain how 1 Corinthians 1 and 15, Romans 10, Acts 4:12, and Galatians 1 allow any room for your “true trust” gospel (that excludes Jesus and Him crucified) to be anything other than a false gospel cursed of God?

I will wait patiently for you to address those passages without attacking “Calvinism” which isn’t the subject of this OP. Stay on topic.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

…..

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
For a man to suppress the truth, he must first have been made aware of that truth.
Rom_1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them….

If God desires to let people know Him through other means then who are you to say that He is wrong. When the bible tells me that man will be held responsible for not knowing God then that tells me that God has provided the way for them to know Him. If that way had not been provided then none of the OT saints would have come to know God or to be saved as the gospel of Christ was not being preached then was it?…..

Romans 1 tells us all of mankind has rejected God’s revelation of Himself found in creation and are condemned. Your “true trust” gospel makes God a liar by claiming some have “true trust” in God without the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Concerning OT Saints, they were all saved via special revelation, not general revelation. God choses Abram even though his family worship idols. There was nothing good in Abram prior to God revealing Himself to him.

The book of Hebrews tells is the OT Saints believed the promises of God concerning the coming Messiah. Those promises concerning the Messiah began in Genesis 3. So God revealed Himself to OT Saints apart from general revelation and spoke of the coming Messiah.

So yes, the gospel of the Messiah (Christ in Greek) was preached throughout history.

If you really understood scripture as well as you claim this truth would not be a surprise to you.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel and cursed of God.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I explained to you, AGAIN, what I believe in post#22. Once again, you ignored what I said and attributed beliefs to me that I have specifically denied. You then claim you do not know what I believe, but insist it isn’t scripture despite not knowing what it is I believe.

Quite frankly, that is a stupid thing to say.

I supported my position that the gospel is necessary for salvation in my first post. Others have added scripture that further supports that truth.

Without any doubt, however, your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel condemned by scripture as being “cursed of God”.

peace to you

I realize what you said but since you support the calvinist DoG / TULIP that calls you words into question. Be that as it may, I am not here to tell you what to believe as that has been determined for you already.

As I said before you have this strange idea that you were elected before time began, which is not a biblical idea but rather a calvinist construct. But the idea that God would actually love His creation enough that He would provide various ways to know and trust in Him you call another gospel. Strange very very strange.

Those that have not heard the gospel message may still be enlightened by the same one who wrote the commandments on the tables of stone. Through a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit, a universal drawing of the Father. God gives His grace to all men John 1:9 and that is why all men can and will be held responsible for their actions Romans 1:20

God created mankind with a conscience. It is because of this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So when the Holy Spirit convicts a man they can either turn to God or reject Him. That is one of the reasons that we are told that man is without excuse.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 1 tells us all of mankind has rejected God’s revelation of Himself found in creation and are condemned. Your “true trust” gospel makes God a liar by claiming some have “true trust” in God without the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Concerning OT Saints, they were all saved via special revelation, not general revelation. God choses Abram even though his family worship idols. There was nothing good in Abram prior to God revealing Himself to him.

The book of Hebrews tells is the OT Saints believed the promises of God concerning the coming Messiah. Those promises concerning the Messiah began in Genesis 3. So God revealed Himself to OT Saints apart from general revelation and spoke of the coming Messiah.

So yes, the gospel of the Messiah (Christ in Greek) was preached throughout history.

If you really understood scripture as well as you claim this truth would not be a surprise to you.

Your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel and cursed of God.

peace to you

Able: God had revealed to Adam and his descendants the true way of worship, and Abel obeyed God by faith.
Enoch: We must have both the desire to please Him and the diligence to seek Him.
Noah: His faith involved the whole person: his mind was warned of God; his heart was moved with fear; and his will acted on what God told him.
Abraham: By faith he obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.
Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob: These can all be included in those that trusted God. These patriarchs all continued to live by faith, and they died believing God would fulfill His promises to them eventually. They looked forward to possessing a land that God promised to give them. Some of the latter saints would have had more general revelation regarding the coming Messiah but even those would not have know the gospel message but were still saved. Or do you think they were not saved?

The promise of a coming redeemer can be seen as we look back at Genesis 3:15 but the OT saints would not have know the means of their salvation from those words. But we do see in Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." a clear indication that man can know God through general revelation which comports well with God's stated desire for all to come to repentance 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and with the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting the world of sin John 16:8 and provides the reason that those that reject God really have no excuse and will stand condemned. Romans 1:20

Actually it seems the truth will be a surprise to you. You must be reading into the scriptures what you are looking for rather than trusting what the text says. Your failure to trust the bible is where you come up short. You are trying to put God into a calvinist box so He can only save according to your view. As I said before you seem to have a much lower view of God than either the bible or I have.

 

[canadyjd]

I realize what you said but since you support the calvinist DoG / TULIP that calls you words into question. Be that as it may, I am not here to tell you what to believe as that has been determined for you already.

As I said before you have this strange idea that you were elected before time began, which is not a biblical idea but rather a calvinist construct. But the idea that God would actually love His creation enough that He would provide various ways to know and trust in Him you call another gospel. Strange very very strange.

Those that have not heard the gospel message may still be enlightened by the same one who wrote the commandments on the tables of stone. Through a universal though unknown Saviour is dispensed a universal Spirit, a universal drawing of the Father. God gives His grace to all men John 1:9 and that is why all men can and will be held responsible for their actions Romans 1:20

God created mankind with a conscience. It is because of this conscience that man is able to determine good and bad, as Paul points out. So when the Holy Spirit convicts a man they can either turn to God or reject Him. That is one of the reasons that we are told that man is without excuse.

Just another anti-Calvinist rank that doesn’t even attempt to address 1 Corinthians 1 and 15, Galatians, Acts 4, Romans 10, all of which prove from scripture your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed by God.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Just another anti-Calvinist rank that doesn’t even attempt to address 1 Corinthians 1 and 15, Galatians, Acts 4, Romans 10, all of which prove from scripture your “true trust” gospel is a false gospel cursed by God.

peace to you

Man you really do think your something, you say I do not deal with scripture that you did not post but you do not deal with what I posted. All it is from you is huff and puff. You just do not want to let God be God. He has to fit into your calvinist mold. You do not like what I say which really does not bother me but the fact you refuse to trust what the bible says should be of concern to you.

You must think that I am not aware of the scripture that you think disprove what I have said but you are wrong. But it seems to me that you are unaware of what the bible says about the love that God for His creation.

Whether you like it or not God is actually in charge and He can save a person any way that He chooses, just as the bible tells us.

The fact that you did not really understand Heb 11 is just one indication that you should spend more time in your studies. Your holding to that DoG or TULIP has just confused your understanding of scripture. The bible has to be your authority.

But this is just a fruitless back and forth so it is better if we just part and go our own way on this matter. I am sure we will disagree on other points in the future. Til then.

PS not another anti-calvinist rant, just me pointing out the contradictions and inconsistencies that I see in that philosophy.

 

[kyredneck]

the essentials of that gospel as Jesus died for our sins, according to the scripture. He was buried and rose from the dead, according to the scripture and that He was seen by more than 500 people after He rise from the dead and before He ascended into heaven.

So, is this the entire complete formula needed 'to go to heaven'? Isn't there a public confession that has to be made? No mention of that. What about baptism? Baptism is clearly included in the formula to be followed in order 'to go to heaven' in other places.

Before someone brings up the OT Saints, we know from Hebrews they believed the promises of God concerning the coming Messiah, so yes , even they are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't see how OT Saints could have possibly gotten all those points of 'the formula' correct.

And what about the Gentiles, who had not the law (which supposedly contained the formula hidden within it, right?)? There were more saints among the OT Gentiles than there were the OT Jews. How did that happen?

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Whether you like it or not God is actually in charge and He can save a person any way that He chooses, just as the bible tells us.

Two texts for you.
Psalms 105:3. 'Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever pleases Him.'
1 Corithians 1:21. 'For since, in the wisdom of God the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what was preached to save those who believe.'
Indeed, God can do whatver He likes and save people anyway He likes, but what He likes is to save people through the preaching of His word.

And BTW, it was an anti-Calvinist rant. It's all you seem able to do, and that not very well..