Shallow preachers....

[Silverhair]

Bwaa-haha. That is funny (and of course, an attack on my God, so not appreciated - but I take it as a lame attempt at humor so won't ban you immediately . That God chose to show UNMERITED GRACE to any of the people on earth is an unfathomable miracle. Every person is His enemy, hating truth, and rightfully condemned to eternal hell already. That He showed grace to me, giving me the gifts of repentance (which I could not do on my own) and faith (which I could not do on my own) is one of the most humbling realizations.

Why did God pick you for salvation? If the answer is anything OTHER than 100% of His unmerited grace, I would be very concerned.

That you consider a critique of calvinism an attack on your God is concerning. Or are you saying that a critique of calvinism is not allowed on this site which would indicate a double standard as you see no problem in your critiquing other views.

Your own theology says God has decreed everything that will happen "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass " LBCF Chap 3 Sec 1

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

So when I say that your calvinist version of God saves some and condemns billions to hell it's just your theology that tells me that, not the bible. So if your unset then look at your theology and realize what it does to the character of God.

The bible tells us God desires all to come to Him for salvation [1 Timothy 2:3-4]. The gospel is the power of God for salvation which is available to all [Romans 1:16] as Christ will draw all to Himself [John 12:32] and all that believe will be saved [Ephesians 1:13] those that reject Him will be condemned [John 3:18]. Christ did not come to condemn but rather to save the world [John 3:17] so the offer of salvation is made to all [John 3:15].

You asked why did God pick me for salvation, He didn't that is just your calvinism. God offers salvation to all that will call on Him [Romans 10:13]. Did God know all those that would freely trust in His son? Of course, He's omniscient. We are saved by the grace of God but we are only saved because we believe. [Ephesians 2:8-9] and we can not earn our salvation, it is Gods' gift so we can not boast.

 

[Reynolds]

This is in the Baptist theology forum, not the C vs A forum.

 

[37818]

This is in the Baptist theology forum, not the C vs A forum.

Some Baptist are Calvinistic. Others are Arminan. And some are neither.

May I suggest, don't attack but simply present what one understands to be simply the correct Biblical view.

 

[Reynolds]

Some Baptist are Calvinistic. Others are Arminan. And some are neither.

May I suggest, don't attack but simply present what one understands to be simply the correct Biblical view.

The thread had nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[AustinC]

I see we have another thread derailed into a discussion the Calvinists are right and everyone else is "shallow" and engaged in ear tinkling.

Calvinists are happy to engage in Evangelism because our Lord commanded we do. But they believe the only people who respond were chosen before creation, thus Evangelism does not bring those who would otherwise not be saved into the kingdom.
Evangelism does not "hasten the day" of Christ's return.

Evangelism certainly hastens the day of Christ's return. We preach the good news. God uses that preaching to save the elect. When all of God's elect are brought to reconciliation, Jesus will return. Jesus delay is purely because not all the elect have come to faith. God desires all (the elect) to be saved and then comes the judgment. (2 Peter 3)

 

[Silverhair]

The thread had nothing to do with Calvinism.

Bob opened that up with his post # 5. He listed what he thought other theological views meant and I just responded and added in calvinism.

 

[JD731]

I have never ever ever ever ever ever denied the substitutionary atonement of Christ, the Resurrection, Sola Fide, Sola Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura.

ever

I remind you that the op is about the IFB and how shallow they have become. It mentions no other group, so I have presented my comments with that in mind. But, it seems as if some want to speak of Calvinism within the context of the op and the IFB, and I am happy to make the comparison, just remember that I am defending the doctrines that the IFB has traditionally held as being fundamental doctrines. By fundamental doctrines, we mean those which must be believed for one to be saved. These are doctrines that sets us apart from other sects of Christianity and causes us to define them that differ as heretical.

Let me qualify that statement. Salvation is not dependent on learning the fundamentals of the faith, but by believing them from the heart and trusting that what the scriptures say about them is indeed true. One who does this can confidently be assured that he is saved and is going to heaven. The fundamentals indeed must be learned and known but that is not enough, they must be embraced by faith with the conviction they are true. Salvation (deliverance) from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, comes to that person at that point.

Having said that, few, if any, IFB believers have learned the fundamentals and been saved by reading a Bible. That is not how God has told us that men are saved. God has told us that saving faith comes by "hearing" the gospel of Jesus Christ. The faithful preacher will preach the fundamentals of the faith into his ear so that it might get into his consciousness and make him aware of not only his alienated condition before God, but the possibility that God has put before him that he has made a way for the guilty sinners to be reconciled to himself through the God-Man, Jesus Christ, who he sent from heaven, through a virgin girl, and who lived without sinning and then substituting himself as the person who is able to endure the penalty for all men, once for all.

Believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is not the life changing event that most men embrace the first time they hear it but is like a seed planted in their minds that may or may not bear fruit. One must conclude that he is indeed guilty of sin against God and there is a judgement by a thrice holy and righteous judge who he will face at the end of his life and realize that it is this same God who has reached out to him in grace and mercy and has made peace between himself and sinful men by the dying man, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us all on that tree, thus making peace by taking sin away and not imputing personal sins to men, except those men who die without believing and embracing this person of Jesus Christ as his substitute and coming to God in his name. God has given assurance to all men that he can and will redeem them through the sacrifice of this man by raising him from the dead three days after he died, and then taking him to heaven. The resurrection and being taken to heaven convinces us that God saw this man as perfect and unblemished by sin, and righteous. It is his righteousness that is required to be in the presence of God and he gives it as a gift in the person of the Holy Spirit who is that righteousness and who indwells the believer exactly when he believes and is his eternal life forever. This is the "gift of God" made possible by the Son, to all sinners who will believe God.

If your theology is forced to put unbiblical qualifiers on God's perfect representation of himself and his salvation, like you have done in your comments, some of which I have quoted, it means that you have not believed God and you have to restate his salvation with words and explanations of your own. It becomes a unique doctrine of your faith and violates the fundamentals. This is a reason I reject Calvinism and other sects and will resist men who do not believe the words of God, but add or take away from them.

Our disagreement is about one doctrine and one doctrine only. The effacacy of the cross of Jesus Christ. One must get this right. His death on that cross brought reconciliation between God and man by his taking away sin by enduring the wrath of God against it. According to our text in 2 Cor 5, God in this age of the dispensation of grace will not impute sin to men in the world while they live in this body or to the end of this age.

 

[Marooncat79]

I have said nothing that the Bible does not teach

 

[DaveXR650]

I remind you that the op is about the IFB and how shallow they have become.

JD. I was IFB from 1979 to about 2008. I remember them being seriously into scripture memorization, witnessing, not going along with modernism and evolution and so on. The Bible study was serious but the theological study was mostly to equip us to go against Roman Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon and Charismatic folks. We DID a lot of stuff. Witnessing and fellowship being stressed mostly. When a new pastor came they started the no mixed bathing, KJV only and underline the only, and the emphasis on the hair and dress which I did not like. Their stance on drinking and movies has done me much benefit to this day I would say. I treasure the years with those churches.

I noticed shallowness creeping in in the 80's when we had some political success with the Moral Majority and also with a general increase in prosperity among members and an increase in general worldliness. You have to remember that even the Southern Baptist Convention had become liberal and the conservatives (theological) had to fight to get it back. As IFB we tended to look down on them because they were in an association, but we considered them fellow travelers.

I also remember that as guys like John R. Rice, died the newer IFB leaders, and I'm talking about the editors of Sword of the Lord started the ridiculous methods of "soul winning" where you would have literal thousands of converts in the big churches and then hundreds baptized and then 10 people from that group active as church members a year later. The problems were obvious so a lot of people started rejecting that and then one more thing happened. Being a church member was no longer a "thing". Just a relatively few years ago it was good to have church membership just to put on a resume and the shallow, worldly preaching churches were full of those. (That was not only IFB but I knew many that were like that.)

Then the most recent hit was Calvinism. After many non serious sermons filled with funny illustrations and stories, many people in these churches were starving to death for serious Bible study once again. Calvinism with the creeds, theology and seminary trained preachers supplied this and it was during this time everyone started reading Martyn Lloyd Jones and the Puritan paperbacks. That's when I left my moderate, IFB church, not because I quit but I was told in a nice way that I was welcome to leave because I did not hate Calvinism enough.

 

[Van]

Evangelism certainly hastens the day of Christ's return. We preach the good news. God uses that preaching to save the elect. When all of God's elect are brought to reconciliation, Jesus will return. Jesus delay is purely because not all the elect have come to faith. God desires all (the elect) to be saved and then comes the judgment. (2 Peter 3)

Unbiblical nonsense.

 

[AustinC]

Unbiblical nonsense.

It's very much biblical, but it doesn't surprise me you think it to be nonsense.

 

[Van]

It's very much biblical, but it doesn't surprise me you think it to be nonsense.

Yet another mindless post, devoid of content.

Calvinism claims God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, thus human effort is predestined and does not hasten the day. Just one of myriads of biblical truths that declare Calvinism is bogus.

 

[Marooncat79]

Isaiah 45 KJV

 

[AustinC]

Yet another mindless post, devoid of content.

Calvinism claims God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, thus human effort is predestined and does not hasten the day. Just one of myriads of biblical truths that declare Calvinism is bogus.

Very much mindful, but it doesn't surprise me that you cannot understand.
The Bible tells us about God's predestination, not just Calvinists.
*Romans 8:29-30*
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
*Ephesians 1:11-14*
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
The Bible also tells us to share the good news and make disciples.
*Matthew 28:18-20*
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
*Acts 1:7-8*
He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
*2 Peter 3:1-13*
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Very much biblical, mindful, and full of content...despite your denial.

 

[JD731]

JD. I was IFB from 1979 to about 2008. I remember them being seriously into scripture memorization, witnessing, not going along with modernism and evolution and so on. The Bible study was serious but the theological study was mostly to equip us to go against Roman Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon and Charismatic folks. We DID a lot of stuff. Witnessing and fellowship being stressed mostly. When a new pastor came they started the no mixed bathing, KJV only and underline the only, and the emphasis on the hair and dress which I did not like. Their stance on drinking and movies has done me much benefit to this day I would say. I treasure the years with those churches.

Interesting DaveXR650, the doctrine that holds IFB together is the "F" in IFB. I hope your leaving the fellowship of IFB does not mean you have also changed your mind on how God is able to cleanse us of our sins and save our souls. Fundamentalists do not look on these movements and philosophies that have different ideas on the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith as fellow travelers, but they look on them as a mission field and someone to be evangelized if possible, and resisted in their efforts to mis-define God and his word. Those people who say they were once IFB, but no longer, are men who might never have been fundamentalists in their understanding of the Christian faith.

You should not take my words to mean that I think you must be a member of an IFB church to be saved or even to be right with God. But a man must believe the fundamentals no matter who he fellowships with. If he does he is saved, and if he doesn't he is unsaved. It is really that narrow.

I noticed shallowness creeping in in the 80's when we had some political success with the Moral Majority and also with a general increase in prosperity among members and an increase in general worldliness. You have to remember that even the Southern Baptist Convention had become liberal and the conservatives (theological) had to fight to get it back. As IFB we tended to look down on them because they were in an association, but we considered them fellow travelers

.

You must remember that there is a real personal devil. He is an adversary and the churches have been infiltrated by pastors and members who he has sent. That is one good reason for the "I" in IFB. He has sent in his watered down translations and it has all had an effect on these churches over all. We are seeing far fewer dispensational churches among the IFB and this is two of the main reasons for the shallowness. What else are they going to preach?

I also remember that as guys like John R. Rice, died the newer IFB leaders, and I'm talking about the editors of Sword of the Lord started the ridiculous methods of "soul winning" where you would have literal thousands of converts in the big churches and then hundreds baptized and then 10 people from that group active as church members a year later. The problems were obvious so a lot of people started rejecting that and then one more thing happened. Being a church member was no longer a "thing". Just a relatively few years ago it was good to have church membership just to put on a resume and the shallow, worldly preaching churches were full of those. (That was not only IFB but I knew many that were like that)

John R Rice was the Father of that sort of evangelism. He started the Sword of the Lord as far as I know and had soul winning conferences. The problem I see with the Sword philosophy is that they pushed for a conversion of sinners without the sinner understanding the fundamentals of the faith or even how guilty he was before God. Salvation to many of them was like magic. There is planting and growing seasons before there is a harvest. The word of God is "seed."

Then the most recent hit was Calvinism. After many non serious sermons filled with funny illustrations and stories, many people in these churches were starving to death for serious Bible study once again. Calvinism with the creeds, theology and seminary trained preachers supplied this and it was during this time everyone started reading Martyn Lloyd Jones and the Puritan paperbacks. That's when I left my moderate, IFB church, not because I quit but I was told in a nice way that I was welcome to leave because I did not hate Calvinism enough.

There is nothing fundamental about the Calvinist doctrines no matter who preaches it. They have re-worded some of their translations to compromise or water down the virgin birth of Jesus Christ by writing that he was the "unique" Son of God, or that he was the one and only Son of God, rather than he is the only begotten Son of God.They have "limited atonement," and faith as the gift of God, and that you were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world, thus taking away the centrality of the cross of Christ, and they teach faith is a grace given by God, making salvation by faith through grace rather than by grace through faith, and on and on......

If this is where you went because of shallow preaching in the IFB, then God have mercy is all I can say.

The first people to embrace Calvinism were Catholics because Calvinism came from Catholics. All of the Reformers were Catholics. Augustine, the inspiration for Calvin was the Father of the Roman Catholic church.

Do not be deceived!

 

[Salty]

Just remember - you do NOT need to be a IFB to be Fundamental
I am a Fundamentalist who is in a church affiliated with the SBC!

 

[DaveXR650]

@JD731 . Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail to my rambling post. My opinions regarding the shallow preaching were what I had observed at my church starting in the late 90's if I remember right. Mostly I observed it with other churches though, and frankly it is much more of a problem in what's left of mainline Protestant churches.

I would say from your answer you show what I think is the Achilles heal of IFB churches. The tendency to separate over doctrine or standards or Bible versions is so strong that it's hard to keep them together and stability suffers. Most IFB guys I know don't like Calvinists and don't like Baptists who are association affiliated, don't like Billy Graham, don't like non KJV users and so on. You guys don't like John R. Rice and Sword of the Lord which to most other fundamentalists would be good reason to split from you over.

You should not take my words to mean that I think you must be a member of an IFB church to be saved or even to be right with God. But a man must believe the fundamentals no matter who he fellowships with. If he does he is saved, and if he doesn't he is unsaved. It is really that narrow.

I would like to start a thread on exactly what the fundamentals are. What would be the most concise statement to which everyone would agree that a person could hold to and be considered a fellow believer? But I don't think it would go well.

 

[JD731]

Just remember - you do NOT need to be a IFB to be Fundamental
I am a Fundamentalist who is in a church affiliated with the SBC!

I am glad you are fundamental. Praise God. I know that the fundamentals of Christianity are expressed in the NT by the phrase “ the faith.” This phrase includes all the doctrines of Christ concerning our salvation in this comprehensive phrase. It is in the NT 42 times. You should look it up and read about it. Here is an example of it’ use.


Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Stand fast
one mind
One spirit
Striving together

can you honestly strive together with people who have a radical difference in the application of the gospel of Jesus Christ, from your belief that he came to atone for the sins of the whole world, and whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely?

I would like to know how that works. Do not stand for “ the faith” to be redefined.

 

[Van]

Very much mindful, but it doesn't surprise me that you cannot understand.
The Bible tells us about God's predestination, not just Calvinists.
SNIP
Very much biblical, mindful, and full of content...despite your denial.

Yet another brain dead copy and paste post of a non-germane word salad.

Evangelism will hasten the day of the Lord's return. Calvinism denies this.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another brain dead copy and paste post of a non-germane word salad.

Evangelism will hasten the day of the Lord's return. Calvinism denies this.

Calvinism doesn't deny this at all. Historically Calvinists have been forefront in missions. Check out the Presbyterian church in Korea and China. It's vibrant and sending missionaries throughout Asia and the world. You are simply ignorant and leaning on a figment of your imagination.