Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?7

Maybe I misunderstood you but earlier it looked like you were objecting to someone saying that Paul was lost while he was persecuting the church. If you are referring to the merit and cause of forgiveness of sins then I agree. If you think someone is forgiven and justified before they believe then you are the one off on a tangent. There are some on here who think that it is legalism to tell people they must repent and believe the gospel. If you are not meaning that then I apologize.

 

If you say that a person who Christ died for is forgiven before he is converted then you are going against the Calvinist John Owen. Why is that important. Because he wrote "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" which uses the argument that Christ died for specific people only (the elect), and that the death of Christ in itself and by itself actually accomplished the redemption of the elect. As far as I know if you are a 5 point Calvinist there is still no writing in favor of a limited atonement that surpasses that work.

Now here's the problem. Owen was also a preacher. He said that Christ can do nothing for you as long as you were in a state of unbelief. He warned against unbelief, putting off repentance, and being lax in the mortification of sin in your life. He also warned against the possibility of drifting, backsliding, and apostacy. His warnings were addressed to hearers as if they were in charge of doing the right thing and thus could heed or ignore him to their own peril.

So was Owen not really a good Calvinist? I think he was. He even said in one work that there was a sense that sanctification come first, meaning that the first thing God did toward his elect was separate out those who would be elect. He also said that the Holy Spirit is always at the root and the cause of any good thing we do or any progress we make in our own salvation or sanctification. But he never went so far as to say that our involvement in any of this did not involve our wills and our actual faith. So I get nervous whenever some of you guys go so far in making salvation "all of God" that you object to calling for warning people about their need for Christ, or objecting when someone says they repented or believed.

 

I think it will be helpful if folk read What is Faith? by J. Gresham Machen (Banner of Truth; ISBN 0-85151-594-0). To give a massive over-simplification of the book, Machen says that we are saved by the blood of Christ, but faith is the conduit down which come God's blessings: justification, salvation, sanctification.

 

If I understand it right the reason we are saved is because God loves us and is merciful. The only basis for God doing that and not violating his sense of justice and his nature is Christs death on the cross and his shed blood and the fact that we can be united with Christ and seen by God as being "in Christ". So we benefit from his death and from his life of active obedience.

Our uniting with Christ on our part consists of faith which Owen described as a hand taking hold of the gift. This faith is also described as a "coming to Christ", "receiving Christ", or "resting or trusting in Christ". It is the actual act on our part of our salvation. It provides no merit or intrinsic value to our standing before God and is only an instrument or conduit of our receiving Christ. Owen himself said all these descriptions are incomplete and somewhat unsatisfactory but they are the best we can do.

He also said faith is a gift wrought by the Holy Spirit in us. Yet he said that God does not believe for us - we have to have faith. He also said that we only can look at whether we believe and whether we see evidences of sanctification in order to know if we are saved. Believing that we are saved or that we are elect is not saving faith but a way of self deception.

I think what makes this difficult is the Reformed belief is that God is working all of this out in us. Our salvation IS indeed the work of God from start to finish. But our salvation also involves a rational interaction with God. The problem for us at that point is our will. So the work of the Holy Spirit will occur in our will and he will work it so that we come to faith or decide to believe or change our mind or it will occur to us that all this is true or we will realize the importance of our salvation and begin to strive to enter in at the narrow gate. And I'm afraid some of you guys on here object to those types of things because we do them. And this is in spite of how many times I say it is all wrought in us by the Holy Spirit.

 

I fear you have somehow gotten into a mindset where one is not allowed to do that which the Bible clearly requires for salvation. You are saved when you repent and believe the gospel. You are getting so hung up on the timing that you seem to be missing the main things. Why are you trying to make a primary doctrine out of the idea that you are already justified prior to you having any interest in the gospel? These silly logical games serve no purpose. If you believe that justification and forgiveness comes first then what if you don't repent and believe? Are you still justified? On what basis do you think you are of the elect? I am willing to bet your answer will come down to something that you have done.

 

There is no gospel without the death of Christ. You are separating that which cannot be further reduced.

Yes. When I'm talking about what the person does I put the emphasis on what the person does. This is very important and you guys that overemphasize God's sovereignty need to remember this:
At the point where Jesus says come; at the point where the Bible says repent and believe the gospel - we are to repent and believe the gospel, not philosophize on the sovereignty of God.

That's true but I noticed you never answered the question before either. How did you connect yourself to this? What makes you think you, yourself has any interest in this? You obviously think you are of the elect. Why do you think that?

 

Are you saying that to repent and believe the gospel is somehow wrong? That's what happens when you think you are tapping into some higher knowledge that only a few can see. You logically twist yourself into a situation where you are calling all preachers from Paul down through the Puritan era and on down through Spurgeon and most modern preachers heretics because they dare call on people to repent and believe the gospel. And I noticed that you cannot answer my repeated question of what makes you think you are elect. And of course there is a reason for that. Any answer you give will involve something you believe or do. I wish you could understand that believing the gospel or receiving Christ in no way takes anything away from the work of Christ on the cross. Owen said that nothing honors Christ more than believing and trusting in his work on the cross. There is no conflict between faith and honoring the work of Christ on the cross.

 

THE NATURE OF THE EFFECTUAL CALL

It is subjective or internal.

There is an outward or objective call in which the gospel is presented or offered to the sinner.

The subjective or internal call is made within the sinner.

In this call, grace operates on the mind and heart.

In this call, the Spirit compels them to come in not by forcing the will, but by changing the mind and heart; by changing the governing disposition of the soul; so that they become willing.

Bancroft defines the effectual call in these words: "By the effectual invitation or call is meant that exercise of Divine power upon the soul, immediate, spiritual, and supernatural, which communicates a new spiritual life, and thus makes a new mode of spiritual activity possible.

Repentance, faith, trust, hope, and love, are purely and simply the sinner's own acts; but as such are possible to him only by virtue of the change wrought in the moral condition of his faculties by the re-creative power of God.

"It is a special call.

There is a general call whenever and wherever the gospel is preached.

God is sincere in this call, and the sinner is responsible to heed it, but the fact is he never does.

The special call is something over and beyond the preaching of the gospel.

The special call is made to those who are denominated sheep, elect, predestinated, and is always effective.

Christ said,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto
them eternal life; and they shall never perish
..." (John 10:27,28).

And speaking of the lost sheep among the Gentiles, He said,
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..."

(John 10:16). Paul recognized the elect
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost..."
(IThess. 1:5).

from: Definitions of Doctrine Volume II: Sin, Salvation, Service | PDF | Adam | Sin

 

No. Don't do that. It's your thread. Continue to respond to the others on here and I will stay off. Thanks for the discussion though. Dave