The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?7

[Brightfame52]

I hope you realize you are going in a completely wrong direction from even the highest, most deterministic Calvinists when you assert this. Remember, our problem is with our wills. Supernatural work done upon us will be done upon our wills - and then we respond. It is completely correct to appeal to our wills in preaching like the Bible does. That's why we are to strive to enter in at the strait gate and to improve diligently every ray of light we are given. What you are proposing here is not normal Calvinism.

You off on something else, Im speaking about the blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Brightfame52]

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you." John 6:53

So are you saying one must drink His Blood and Eat His Flesh before God will forgive you of sins ? So just the mere fact that Christ died for an individuals sins, means nothing when it comes to Gods forgiveness. Thats what Im getting from you friend.

 

[DaveXR650]

You off on something else, Im speaking about the blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sins.

Maybe I misunderstood you but earlier it looked like you were objecting to someone saying that Paul was lost while he was persecuting the church. If you are referring to the merit and cause of forgiveness of sins then I agree. If you think someone is forgiven and justified before they believe then you are the one off on a tangent. There are some on here who think that it is legalism to tell people they must repent and believe the gospel. If you are not meaning that then I apologize.

 

[Brightfame52]

davexr

Maybe I misunderstood you but earlier it looked like you were objecting to someone saying that Paul was lost while he was persecuting the church.

Paul was lost then, unconverted, unregenerate. However Im asking was he forgiven by the blood of Christ while he was unconverted ? Christ died for him before he was converted correct ?

. If you think someone is forgiven and justified before they believe then you are the one off on a tangent.

yes I know every sinner Christ died for is forgiven and Justified before they believe, thats why they believe. Since when did someones act of believing Justify them before God ? I thought it was Christs Blood that did that ! Thats what Faith believes Rom 5:8-9

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[DaveXR650]

However Im asking was he forgiven by the blood of Christ while he was unconverted ? Christ died for him before he was converted correct ?

If you say that a person who Christ died for is forgiven before he is converted then you are going against the Calvinist John Owen. Why is that important. Because he wrote "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" which uses the argument that Christ died for specific people only (the elect), and that the death of Christ in itself and by itself actually accomplished the redemption of the elect. As far as I know if you are a 5 point Calvinist there is still no writing in favor of a limited atonement that surpasses that work.

Now here's the problem. Owen was also a preacher. He said that Christ can do nothing for you as long as you were in a state of unbelief. He warned against unbelief, putting off repentance, and being lax in the mortification of sin in your life. He also warned against the possibility of drifting, backsliding, and apostacy. His warnings were addressed to hearers as if they were in charge of doing the right thing and thus could heed or ignore him to their own peril.

So was Owen not really a good Calvinist? I think he was. He even said in one work that there was a sense that sanctification come first, meaning that the first thing God did toward his elect was separate out those who would be elect. He also said that the Holy Spirit is always at the root and the cause of any good thing we do or any progress we make in our own salvation or sanctification. But he never went so far as to say that our involvement in any of this did not involve our wills and our actual faith. So I get nervous whenever some of you guys go so far in making salvation "all of God" that you object to calling for warning people about their need for Christ, or objecting when someone says they repented or believed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Paul was lost then, unconverted, unregenerate. However Im asking was he forgiven by the blood of Christ while he was unconverted ? Christ died for him before he was converted correct ?

I think it will be helpful if folk read What is Faith? by J. Gresham Machen (Banner of Truth; ISBN 0-85151-594-0). To give a massive over-simplification of the book, Machen says that we are saved by the blood of Christ, but faith is the conduit down which come God's blessings: justification, salvation, sanctification.

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeem us from unbelief/iniquity ! 3

Now what is one of the intended results of Christ's giving Himself for those He gave Himself for, the Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


BTW, thats the World Christ died for, the Whole World He is a Saviour unto, the Church ekklēsia or the called out ones, which is also His Body, which He is the Saviour of Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body.

And it is the Purpose of God through His Death, to redeem them from all Iniquity, and the word redeem from Titus 2:14 is the greek word lytroō and means:

I release on receipt of ransom; mid: I redeem, release by paying ransom, liberate.

Now accompanying this liberation by redemption, its effects after paying the ransom, which is the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19,

It effects a restoration :

"a ransom-price") – properly, to release (set free) by paying the full ransom; "to release, on receipt of ransom" (Vine); (figuratively) to restore "something back, into the possession of its rightful owner – i.e. rescuing from the power and possession of an alien possessor"

It rescues them from the power and possession of the devil who holds them captive 2 Tim 2:26

To be captive means:

taken and held as or as if a prisoner of war ,kept within bounds ,held under control of another but having the appearance of independence; especially : owned or controlled by another

This would be all of us by nature, under the power and control of the devil or as Paul says it in Eph 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Its the Kingdom/power of darkness that they are delivered from as here Col 1:13

13 Who hath delivered or rescued us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Now Christ's redemptive blood, is suppose to deliver, rescue each one of the called out ones, those He died for, from the power of darkness, as well as translate them into the Kingdom of Christ, or else His Blood failed to redeem them !

All of you who are teaching and believing that one for Christ died can go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24, you are guilty of calling Christ's redemptive death a failure, it failed to redeem them and rescue them from the power of the devil, who holds mankind in unbelief ! 28

 

[Brightfame52]

If you say that a person who Christ died for is forgiven before he is converted then you are going against the Calvinist John Owen. Why is that important. Because he wrote "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" which uses the argument that Christ died for specific people only (the elect), and that the death of Christ in itself and by itself actually accomplished the redemption of the elect. As far as I know if you are a 5 point Calvinist there is still no writing in favor of a limited atonement that surpasses that work.

Now here's the problem. Owen was also a preacher. He said that Christ can do nothing for you as long as you were in a state of unbelief. He warned against unbelief, putting off repentance, and being lax in the mortification of sin in your life. He also warned against the possibility of drifting, backsliding, and apostacy. His warnings were addressed to hearers as if they were in charge of doing the right thing and thus could heed or ignore him to their own peril.

So was Owen not really a good Calvinist? I think he was. He even said in one work that there was a sense that sanctification come first, meaning that the first thing God did toward his elect was separate out those who would be elect. He also said that the Holy Spirit is always at the root and the cause of any good thing we do or any progress we make in our own salvation or sanctification. But he never went so far as to say that our involvement in any of this did not involve our wills and our actual faith. So I get nervous whenever some of you guys go so far in making salvation "all of God" that you object to calling for warning people about their need for Christ, or objecting when someone says they repented or believed.

So I take it you dont believe a person whom Christ died for, is Justified before God on that sole basis. If you dont believe that, I think thats a problem, a serious one at that. But Im familiar with John Owen, and God used that book to convince me of limited atonement.

 

[Brightfame52]

I think it will be helpful if folk read What is Faith? by J. Gresham Machen (Banner of Truth; ISBN 0-85151-594-0). To give a massive over-simplification of the book, Machen says that we are saved by the blood of Christ, but faith is the conduit down which come God's blessings: justification, salvation, sanctification.

I disagree with Gresham then. I believe the bible teaches that the elect by the death of Christ alone were Justified and forgiven of all their sins, since they were imputed to Christ. But in due time, God regenerates the Justified sinner, and gives them the Gift of Faith to receive that Justification into their heart and mind, after hearing the Gospel.

 

[DaveXR650]

So I take it you dont believe a person whom Christ died for, is Justified before God on that sole basis. If you dont believe that, I think thats a problem, a serious one at that. But Im familiar with John Owen, and God used that book to convince me of limited atonement.

If I understand it right the reason we are saved is because God loves us and is merciful. The only basis for God doing that and not violating his sense of justice and his nature is Christs death on the cross and his shed blood and the fact that we can be united with Christ and seen by God as being "in Christ". So we benefit from his death and from his life of active obedience.

Our uniting with Christ on our part consists of faith which Owen described as a hand taking hold of the gift. This faith is also described as a "coming to Christ", "receiving Christ", or "resting or trusting in Christ". It is the actual act on our part of our salvation. It provides no merit or intrinsic value to our standing before God and is only an instrument or conduit of our receiving Christ. Owen himself said all these descriptions are incomplete and somewhat unsatisfactory but they are the best we can do.

He also said faith is a gift wrought by the Holy Spirit in us. Yet he said that God does not believe for us - we have to have faith. He also said that we only can look at whether we believe and whether we see evidences of sanctification in order to know if we are saved. Believing that we are saved or that we are elect is not saving faith but a way of self deception.

I think what makes this difficult is the Reformed belief is that God is working all of this out in us. Our salvation IS indeed the work of God from start to finish. But our salvation also involves a rational interaction with God. The problem for us at that point is our will. So the work of the Holy Spirit will occur in our will and he will work it so that we come to faith or decide to believe or change our mind or it will occur to us that all this is true or we will realize the importance of our salvation and begin to strive to enter in at the narrow gate. And I'm afraid some of you guys on here object to those types of things because we do them. And this is in spite of how many times I say it is all wrought in us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

Davexr650

If I understand it right the reason we are saved is because God loves us and is merciful

Not only that but because Christ died for the elect ! I believe the death of Christ alone saved them He died for from the penalty of sin, and provided them Justification and forgiveness of sins. You dont believe that Dave ?

 

[DaveXR650]

Not only that but because Christ died for the elect ! I believe the death of Christ alone saved them He died for from the penalty of sin, and provided them Justification and forgiveness of sins. You dont believe that Dave ?

I fear you have somehow gotten into a mindset where one is not allowed to do that which the Bible clearly requires for salvation. You are saved when you repent and believe the gospel. You are getting so hung up on the timing that you seem to be missing the main things. Why are you trying to make a primary doctrine out of the idea that you are already justified prior to you having any interest in the gospel? These silly logical games serve no purpose. If you believe that justification and forgiveness comes first then what if you don't repent and believe? Are you still justified? On what basis do you think you are of the elect? I am willing to bet your answer will come down to something that you have done.

 

[Brightfame52]

I fear you have somehow gotten into a mindset where one is not allowed to do that which the Bible clearly requires for salvation. You are saved when you repent and believe the gospel. You are getting so hung up on the timing that you seem to be missing the main things. Why are you trying to make a primary doctrine out of the idea that you are already justified prior to you having any interest in the gospel? These silly logical games serve no purpose. If you believe that justification and forgiveness comes first then what if you don't repent and believe? Are you still justified? On what basis do you think you are of the elect? I am willing to bet your answer will come down to something that you have done.

Its only appropriate to have a interest in the Gospel after having had an interest in the death of Christ, which Death Justified the ungodly. I fear you put more emphasize on what the person does in repenting and believing as to form the primary basis for Justification before God and the forgiveness of sins, and not the Blood of Christ. Now that's a mistake and puts you in the group of those who believe in salvation by your works, your graces. May God be pleased to deliver you from that type thinking friend. The Main thing is Christ and Him Crucified!

 

[DaveXR650]

Its only appropriate to have a interest in the Gospel after having had an interest in the death of Christ,

There is no gospel without the death of Christ. You are separating that which cannot be further reduced.

I fear you put more emphasize on what the person does in repenting and believing as to form the primary basis for Justification before God and the forgiveness of sins, and not the Blood of Christ.

Yes. When I'm talking about what the person does I put the emphasis on what the person does. This is very important and you guys that overemphasize God's sovereignty need to remember this:
At the point where Jesus says come; at the point where the Bible says repent and believe the gospel - we are to repent and believe the gospel, not philosophize on the sovereignty of God.

. The Main thing is Christ and Him Crucified!

That's true but I noticed you never answered the question before either. How did you connect yourself to this? What makes you think you, yourself has any interest in this? You obviously think you are of the elect. Why do you think that?

 

[Brightfame52]

There is no gospel without the death of Christ. You are separating that which cannot be further reduced.

Yes. When I'm talking about what the person does I put the emphasis on what the person does. This is very important and you guys that overemphasize God's sovereignty need to remember this:
At the point where Jesus says come; at the point where the Bible says repent and believe the gospel - we are to repent and believe the gospel, not philosophize on the sovereignty of God.

That's true but I noticed you never answered the question before either. How did you connect yourself to this? What makes you think you, yourself has any interest in this? You obviously think you are of the elect. Why do you think that?

Im sorry Dave, its no way around it, you appear to promote Justification before God based on the doings of men and not solely on the Blood of Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

Im sorry Dave, its no way around it, you appear to promote Justification before God based on the doings of men and not solely on the Blood of Christ.

Are you saying that to repent and believe the gospel is somehow wrong? That's what happens when you think you are tapping into some higher knowledge that only a few can see. You logically twist yourself into a situation where you are calling all preachers from Paul down through the Puritan era and on down through Spurgeon and most modern preachers heretics because they dare call on people to repent and believe the gospel. And I noticed that you cannot answer my repeated question of what makes you think you are elect. And of course there is a reason for that. Any answer you give will involve something you believe or do. I wish you could understand that believing the gospel or receiving Christ in no way takes anything away from the work of Christ on the cross. Owen said that nothing honors Christ more than believing and trusting in his work on the cross. There is no conflict between faith and honoring the work of Christ on the cross.

 

[Brightfame52]

Are you saying that to repent and believe the gospel is somehow wrong? That's what happens when you think you are tapping into some higher knowledge that only a few can see. You logically twist yourself into a situation where you are calling all preachers from Paul down through the Puritan era and on down through Spurgeon and most modern preachers heretics because they dare call on people to repent and believe the gospel. And I noticed that you cannot answer my repeated question of what makes you think you are elect. And of course there is a reason for that. Any answer you give will involve something you believe or do. I wish you could understand that believing the gospel or receiving Christ in no way takes anything away from the work of Christ on the cross. Owen said that nothing honors Christ more than believing and trusting in his work on the cross. There is no conflict between faith and honoring the work of Christ on the cross.

Im finish with it sir.

 

[Alan Gross]

THE NATURE OF THE EFFECTUAL CALL

It is subjective or internal.

There is an outward or objective call in which the gospel is presented or offered to the sinner.

The subjective or internal call is made within the sinner.

In this call, grace operates on the mind and heart.

In this call, the Spirit compels them to come in not by forcing the will, but by changing the mind and heart; by changing the governing disposition of the soul; so that they become willing.

Bancroft defines the effectual call in these words: "By the effectual invitation or call is meant that exercise of Divine power upon the soul, immediate, spiritual, and supernatural, which communicates a new spiritual life, and thus makes a new mode of spiritual activity possible.

Repentance, faith, trust, hope, and love, are purely and simply the sinner's own acts; but as such are possible to him only by virtue of the change wrought in the moral condition of his faculties by the re-creative power of God.

"It is a special call.

There is a general call whenever and wherever the gospel is preached.

God is sincere in this call, and the sinner is responsible to heed it, but the fact is he never does.

The special call is something over and beyond the preaching of the gospel.

The special call is made to those who are denominated sheep, elect, predestinated, and is always effective.

Christ said,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto
them eternal life; and they shall never perish
..." (John 10:27,28).

And speaking of the lost sheep among the Gentiles, He said,
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..."

(John 10:16). Paul recognized the elect
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost..."
(IThess. 1:5).

from: Definitions of Doctrine Volume II: Sin, Salvation, Service | PDF | Adam | Sin

 

[DaveXR650]

Im finish with it sir.

No. Don't do that. It's your thread. Continue to respond to the others on here and I will stay off. Thanks for the discussion though. Dave

 

[Brightfame52]

THE NATURE OF THE EFFECTUAL CALL

It is subjective or internal.

There is an outward or objective call in which the gospel is presented or offered to the sinner.

The subjective or internal call is made within the sinner.

In this call, grace operates on the mind and heart.

In this call, the Spirit compels them to come in not by forcing the will, but by changing the mind and heart; by changing the governing disposition of the soul; so that they become willing.

Bancroft defines the effectual call in these words: "By the effectual invitation or call is meant that exercise of Divine power upon the soul, immediate, spiritual, and supernatural, which communicates a new spiritual life, and thus makes a new mode of spiritual activity possible.

Repentance, faith, trust, hope, and love, are purely and simply the sinner's own acts; but as such are possible to him only by virtue of the change wrought in the moral condition of his faculties by the re-creative power of God.

"It is a special call.

There is a general call whenever and wherever the gospel is preached.

God is sincere in this call, and the sinner is responsible to heed it, but the fact is he never does.

The special call is something over and beyond the preaching of the gospel.

The special call is made to those who are denominated sheep, elect, predestinated, and is always effective.

Christ said,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto
them eternal life; and they shall never perish
..." (John 10:27,28).

And speaking of the lost sheep among the Gentiles, He said,
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..."

(John 10:16). Paul recognized the elect
"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost..."
(IThess. 1:5).

from: Definitions of Doctrine Volume II: Sin, Salvation, Service | PDF | Adam | Sin

The effectual Call is to them that have been regenerated. They were first sanctified by the Spirit [regeneration] then called by the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification[regeneration] of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And before regeneration there was election.