Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

[DaveXR650]

Of course, sanctification is not optional.

Well, at this point it has been explained that there is a group of mainly Baptists, many of them Southern Baptists, who were teaching that is IS optional. So that is what MacArthur and Washer were complaining against. So what is the problem with it?

Further back in time you mentioned Neonomianism and you are right. But Neonomianism flat out said that justification did involve works and pursuit of holiness. Baxter was arguing against antinomianism that he observed among soldiers while he was a chaplain in the army. He went too far. The LS guys are proposing standard Puritan era WCF type of salvation. You may not agree with it but it is the standard, not something new. Calvin himself believed it.

 

[KenH]

Calvin himself believed it.

Just because something is associated in some way with Calvin, or Puritans, or whomever, does not mean it is going to carry any weight with me. For example, just because I like John Gill's Bible commentary a lot, I do not go along with his adherence to historic premillennialism.

 

[KenH]

The LS guys are proposing standard Puritan era WCF type of salvation.

I'll stick with the salvation that Christ purchased for me by His life, death, and resurrection.

 

[DaveXR650]

Just because something is associated in some way with Calvin, or Puritans, or whomever, does not mean it is going to carry any weight with me. For example, just because I like John Gill's Bible commentary a lot, I do not go along with his adherence to historic premillennialism.

I appreciate that. I was just trying to lay out where people are coming from. You started a thread attacking LS. You tied it in to Arminian theology without any evidence. You made it seem like it was something weird and an aberration in theology. You referenced a guy who is pretty much unknown. Other people might read this and get the impression that LS is something strange and rare when that isn't the case at all. The fact it had to be an issue at all shows how bad off American Christianity is.

 

[KenH]

You made it seem like it was something weird and an aberration in theology.

Regardless of how widespread it is or isn't, it is a false teaching.

 

[canadyjd]

Of course, sanctification is not optional. Neither are wisdom or righteousness or redemption. They are in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I completely agree and suspect most, if not all, LS agree as well.

peace to you

 

[MrW]

Everyone has a Lord. Who is yours?

 

[canadyjd]

Regardless of how widespread it is or isn't, it is a false teaching.

Please demonstrate from scripture LS is a false teaching. Just saying something is a false teaching doesn’t make it true no matter how passionate you are about it.

Please take a specific teaching of LS, tell us exactly what the proponent says it means and the scripture they use to support their claim. Then demonstrate from scripture why their interpretation of the passage is wrong.

I will wait patiently for the derp dive into this discussion.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Everyone has a Lord. Who is yours?

Who are you talking to?

peace to you

 

[MrW]

Everybody. And nobody. It's not meant for anyone to answer. Just introspection. Ask yourself.

But don't tell anyone. Just keep it between you and Him, and live it out.

 

[KenH]

Please demonstrate from scripture LS is a false teaching. Just saying something is a false teaching doesn’t make it true no matter how passionate you are about it.

Please take a specific teaching of LS, tell us exactly what the proponent says it means and the scripture they use to support their claim. Then demonstrate from scripture why their interpretation of the passage is wrong.

I will wait patiently for the derp dive into this discussion.

peace to you

Lordship Salvation—The Crux of the Issue! (trinitygospelchurchky.com)

 

[canadyjd]

Lordship Salvation—The Crux of the Issue! (trinitygospelchurchky.com)

This link is to someone attacking LS.

Why don’t you find a link to a proponent of LS. MacArthur for instance. Read what they say and look at the scripture they use to support their claims.

Try to understand why they believe LS. If you believe there are problems with the doctrine, then show from scripture (preferably the scripture they use to support LS) why they are wrong.

If nothing else, we will get a good Bible study out of it.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

Read what they say and look at the scripture they use to support their claims.

Thank you for the suggestion, but since I am pretty sure that there is way more that I can read or listen to from faithful preachers/teachers of God's Word than I can fit into what time left that God grants me on this earth, I prefer to spend my time there. What I read or hear about what the false preachers/teachers are saying I can get from them.

 

[canadyjd]

Thank you for the suggestion, but since I am pretty sure that there is way more that I can read or listen to from faithful preachers/teachers of God's Word than I can fit into what time left that God grants me on this earth, I prefer to spend my time there. What I read or hear about what the false preachers/teachers are saying I can get from them.

Well then, you will be forever at a disadvantage when you start threads about LS since you do not know what the proponents are saying and why. You are relying on second hand information from people that disagree with LS.

From what I have read from those that disagree, few have ever truly attempted to understand the actual teaching from the source.

As it is, there can really be no debate when one side refuses to actually look at what the other side is saying.

Thanks for the conversation.

BTW, I pray God gives you many more years to study His Word and listen to Godly preachers.

Peace to you

 

[KenH]

BTW, I pray God gives you many more years to study His Word and listen to Godly preachers.

Thank you.

 

[DaveXR650]

Lordship Salvation—The Crux of the Issue! (trinitygospelchurchky.com)

I've had a chance to read the article. I do not find it a satisfactory argument to take the position that they agree with the prime idea of LS, that you cannot claim to be saved and live with no change in your life. And then, turn around and argue that it's wrong because of some subtle theological complaint that sanctification must also me monergistic. This, while not even mentioning the fact that LS is specifically designed to counteract a direct heresy that is being taught by a majority of SBC and evangelical churches. Has this guy been living under a rock? Possibly, but I think the real reason is that there is a major problem with his theology.

Sanctification is monergistic in the sense that it's all driven by the Holy Spirit and it's the result of grace wrought within us. It is synergistic in the sense that you do actively participate in it - because it is you living out life as a Christian. Justification is by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. But you simply cannot get around the fact that there is a necessity of our personal obedience. And it is valid to examine yourself for this. Those who have been taught a type of "cheap grace" with nothing required of you should be warned that this is not Biblical salvation. It will not help those folks to add some good deeds but the Holy Spirit may convict and awaken them to examine themselves and come to Christ in real faith. LS teaching is what is needed for these folks.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.....' I am always amazed that some people seem to think that this verse means 'Don't work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' The fact that God works in you to will and to do for His good pleasure, does not alter the fact that God commands us and we have to do it..

'The works of the flesh are evident.............. of which I tell you beforehand , just as I also told you in the past that those who produce such things will not enter the kingdom of God' (Galatians 5:19-21).

But what about OSAS?

'I tell you.....'

What about 'let go and let God?

'Do not be deceived' (1 Corinthians 6

But what about all these guys saying something different?

'Do not be deceived.'

 

[KenH]

I do not find it a satisfactory argument

As I understand the issue - it is about folks who falsely claim that one must look to good works or "cleaning up your act" after regeneration to prove that one is saved and/or folks who falsely claim that unless there is some great change in your behavior then you are not saved.

As I have already pointed out, even reprobates can do good works or "clean up their act". Even reprobates can exhibit a great change in behavior.

The true believer looks to Christ ALONE for salvation and for assurance.

Also, as Sonny Hernandez wrote in the article: "The Bible does not teach that regenerate Christians have a license to sin or can ignore the costs of following Christ."

 

[DaveXR650]

The true believer looks to Christ ALONE for salvation and for assurance.

Yes, the highest form of assurance is that the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are born of God. But the heart is deceitful above all things too. Owen said you cannot tell if you are elect except by the results. Jesus said a tree is known by it's fruit. It is totally Biblical to look at your life and what you love and evaluate you spiritual condition.

What made me mad about Sonny was that he did correctly observe that and then went on to bring up some subtle theological issue without giving the LS guys ANY credit for taking on a heresy that could be sending a large number of young people to Hell. Most Baptists are being taught that you can indeed ignore the cost of following Christ yet Sonny is more worried that someone might believe that they themselves actually participate in their own Christian life. This is astounding.

 

[KenH]

that could be sending a large number of young people to Hell.

The only people who go to Hell are the reprobates whom God made for that purpose.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?