canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I don’t think you can say it’s a SBC thing. Some churches may emphasize it from time to time. I’m sure many SBC reject it or maybe never even talk about it.
Peace to you
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Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"
- Thread starter KenH
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Peace to you
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Fortunately, this "stuff" is taught much more than it used to be in most Baptist churches. The first edition of Mac's book "The Gospel According to Jesus" came out in 1988 and the last edition I think, was 2008, which had a new chapter clarifying some issues. There has definitely been an improvement. I don't know how much of it is due to the book or how much is due to an increase in interest in the Puritan literature which became popular in that same time period along with the resurgence of Calvinism in Baptist churches.
A dose of Calvinism eliminates the need for "Lordship Salvation" as a thing. It was designed specifically to balance the results of an aggressive type of "soul winning" that resulted in a lot of unconverted, fake Christians. If you read the book it is very familiar to a moderate Calvinistic Baptist who is in a church that teaches the Christian life must be lived and that discipleship should be taken seriously. It was not written to such because to them it is totally ridiculous to even have the idea that Christ is not Lord.
As to people who are so hyper-Calvinistic that they deny any kind of identifiable conversion experience or any type of consciously deciding to follow Christ, the LS book is not intended for them. In my view they have their own problems.
Now you are being judgemental
FYI, it was the orthodox Presbyterians who informed me that my dead child was in hell because his mother and I put him there! I consider that type of hard Calvinism / Puritanism to be unbiblical
KenH
Well-Known Member
Not everyone has a dramatic "Road to Damascus"- type of event, such as the Apostle Paul experienced. Salvation is ALL of God. It is not for man, such as free-willers, to come up with a way so that man can think he contributes to being saved by walking an aisle or saying a "Sinner's Prayer", and such like; nor does the child of God look at himself five years after being regenerated and say to himself, "Oh, look at how much "better" I am than five years ago."
Away with such prideful thinking! "They measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." 2 Corinthians 10:12
God's elect declare, "But by the grace of God I am what I am." 1 Corinthians 15:10
The standard is perfect righteousness, and God's elect know that is found only in Christ, not in man's vaunted "self-improvement".
Now, I can already hear the charge. sounding like Gomer Pyle, "Antinomianism! Antinomianism!". God's elect should try to be the best spouse, or the best parent, or the best employer, or the best employee, etc., that they can be. But is it not done for merit, or to make God "happy" with them. It is done out of love for God and what Christ has done for them, not for any proof of salvation.
Conditions, conditions,conditions were the justification for the barrage of questions that 3 Presbyterian ministers (2 OPC, 1 PCA) barraged me with. We’re you married at conseption, were you a member of our Reformed Presbyterian Churches, was the child baptized etc. well then we must conclude that the child is in hell….however we can save you and your now lovely wife. Just join one of our 3 churches and we will prevent that from you or anymore children you might have! RIGHT
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Don't dish it out and then whine when you get it back. That "stuff".
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This was discussed and mainly settled 500 years ago. The same people who fought against antinomianism, which the free grace movement is a form of, also fought against legalism and Baxterianism or Neonomianism, and the Papacy. They spelled out exactly what they meant and so did MacArthur. You started the thread with false statements about what LS is.
No one is saying you have to have a "road to Damascus" experience. Most of the Puritans who you accuse of being part of this legalistic LS did not know a specific time and place where they accepted Christ. That is quite normal for someone raised in a good church from a child. What they did insist though was that the Holy Spirit no matter how monergistic and in control he is of the whole justification and sanctification process works through the persons mind and soul and will. You go too far if you start trying to act like you just suddenly realize you're elect and thus you are. You are allowed to think about it, you're allowed to repent, and you are allowed to decide to do good works. And you are allowed to examine yourself. You went right ahead and had no problem accusing that of being legalism without looking into the fact that they were not saying that is what saves you.
Don’t you think it’s that vary Puritanical way of thinking that’s objectionable right from the beginning? Like I can’t dance with my wife, I can’t have a beer once in a while, I can’t buy liquor at a store for fear of being seen and reported…yada, yada,yada! All judgemental sin induced nonsense! Really, where are we going with this? I’m not going to castigate someone for whatever and judge my neighbor: Do not judge …
Is so that’s the case…that’s funny, just look who you associate with because this issue of Arminian theology has been hovering game for along time. I’m just sitting around and watch the synergistic crowd come and go, throw the insults around and then pretend they are Godly and saved individuals…lol
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Very sorry to hear about your child’s death. I lost my firstborn infant son more than 30 years ago and it is still, at times, a painful memory.
I take comfort in King David’s experience with the death of his child and his expectation he would see him again.
The folks who told you and your wife your child is in hell are unbiblical, insensitive idiots.
May our Lord Jesus grant you peace concerning the child.
peace to you
Yes and they all three were pastors of community churches where I live… looking for my membership
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
"Pretend they are Godly and saved individuals". Let me make something clear to you. Many Arminians ARE saved and Godly.
Sorry, that won't fly. They dance, many drink beer. I don't know about the liquor store but go for it if you want to. It's the very bunch that prohibited all that that was doing the quick decision soul winning that MacArthur's book was about. You complain about a book you haven't read, and against a group of people who you don't know. Why you would take this on I have no idea but it makes you look really ignorant.
Now that is indicative of conservative calvinism.
Yes, even with faulty theology. Thank God .. guess he is a Great Creator and not a legalistic jerk
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Good. I'm glad you are reversing your previous statement about "pretending they are Godly and saved". Let me know who wins your argument with yourself. I bet it will be you.
Who says i didn’t read that judgmental crappy book. well, you did for starters. Your the one who looks like the ignoramus buddy!
See your true colors are showing lol!
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
If you read it you would know who it was to and you wouldn't have brought this up on here. I know this ain't the most sophisticated debate board on the web but could you do a little better than "crappy"? Or just leave it alone.
- Sorry, the term “Crappy” is accurate. and if my wrist wasn’t broken then I would provide a detailed critique. Note that i did not start this conversation but by the rules of BB I can contribute
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