The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

[AustinC]

Thank you for that AustinC. I hope everyone who reads this appreciates the time you took to prepare a rebuttal for my so called presupposition.

One thing I did not mention in my previous post that should be noted and receive some attention is the fact that "foreknowledge" is not mentioned in Ephesians. Paul does not say the gentiles were foreknown of God. When investigating the term foreknow, foreknown, foreknowledge, foreknew in the contexts of scriptures where these terms are used, we understand that they mean simply, "known before." So, as Paul deals with gentiles and explains the present workings of God on the basis that he did not know them beforehand as he did the Jews when he dealt with this time frame in Romans as this Ephesian epistle will continue to make perfectly clear and will state it succinctly in chapter 2, which I will quote presently.

But for now, let's look at foreknowledge as it applies in context. For that to register correctly in our minds we MUST accept that the New Testament is different from the Old Testament in terms of time frame. Paul used words like "this present time," and "time past," and "times past," and "now," and "ages to come," and "the dispensation of the fulness of times." In the following verses the division of time as it applies to the the old and new testaments are evident.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

So here we go:

God said the following in context of Jews and Israel his people;

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul is not speaking here of individuals. Look at the pronouns. If they are predestinated to the image of Jesus Christ, the whole will have to be predestinated to be glorified as one. That was the intention of God for all Israel. See my quote of 2 Cor 3 in it's entirety at the end of this post. At this point only a small remnant believed in Christ.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Only children of God can hope to be glorified but they must wait for all the children to be born so they may be all glorified together at one time. This is the reason for predestination. Think about joint heirs with Christ. If we all are joint heirs then we must all be together to receive the inheritance. God is not coming down to earth to give us our inheritance, we are going to heaven where he is to receive it.

Ro 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

This is the context in Romans. It is those who had labored under the law of Moses as an operative principle of divine government. This is the context through Rom 11 with gentiles entering the conversation in Rom 11:13.

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

In the following segment Paul bemoans the fact that Israel, the people of his flesh, have not obeyed the gospel by believing it from Acts 2 to Romans 11 even after having it preached to them for these 28 years at this present time, as he calls it.

16 But they (Israel) have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Think gentiles here.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Think about a father holding out his arms and asking his son to come to him. So much for the awful doctrine of sovereignty in the affairs of men.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Pay attention to the definition given clearly by God in his Bible for who he foreknew.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Israel is defined as the physical seed of Abraham
God's people
Israel
A member of one of the 12 tribes of Israel
Foreknown.
The apostle Paul in the present tense, "I am an Israelite" in 58 AD.

This is 28 years after the beginning of the church.
This is 18 years after the inclusion of the gentiles, marked as the beginning of the dispensation of the grace of God.
This is 9 years after Paul wrote Galatians, where he said the following:

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s (spiritual) seed, and heirs according to the promise. (inheritance)

Because Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham and we are "in him."

These passages do not conflict but one must have discernment from God and one must study the scriptures to show himself approved of God.

I hope this helps my Baptist brethren because the Protestants have led them astray by false doctrine.

Romans 2 and Romans 9 remind us that not all Israel is Israel. Therefore, your attempt to separate who Paul is addressing is a failed attempt in hair splitting and is in no way supported by the texts that you butcher in your convoluted exegesis.
It is interesting that you cannot accept God's predestination of His elect and adopted children. This can only be due to your failed presupposition.

*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[JD731]

Romans 2 and Romans 9 remind us that not all Israel is Israel. Therefore, your attempt to separate who Paul is addressing is a failed attempt in hair splitting and is in no way supported by the texts that you butcher in your convoluted exegesis.
It is interesting that you cannot accept God's predestination of His elect and adopted children. This can only be due to your failed presupposition.

*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Thanks again for that detailed and studious rebuttal. What would we do without preachers like you?

 

[robycop3]

Romans 2 and Romans 9 remind us that not all Israel is Israel. Therefore, your attempt to separate who Paul is addressing is a failed attempt in hair splitting and is in no way supported by the texts that you butcher in your convoluted exegesis.
It is interesting that you cannot accept God's predestination of His elect and adopted children. This can only be due to your failed presupposition.

*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I said all along that God predestined some like Moses & John The Baptist.. However, everyone else must come to Jesus in repentance, belief & obedience. But salvation is open to all living. that's why He gave us His word, & His preachers. Calvinism is horse feathers & chicken teeth.

 

[Alan Gross]

Paul is not speaking here of individuals. Look at the pronouns. If they are predestinated to the image of Jesus Christ, the whole will have to be predestinated to be glorified as one.

Paul is not speaking here of individuals(???)

Who is "whom", then, if they are not an individual?

You said we are allowed to "Look at the pronouns."

Did you think "the image of Jesus Christ" means ”to be glorified"?

Instead of, for God's children in their walk of faith with the Lord, in their lifetime, to be conformed to Jesus' "Christlikeness"?

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

"Moreover whom he did predestinate,

to Salvation,

them he also called:

to Salvation during their lifetime,

and whom he called,

He saved by Pardoning their sins,

them he also justified: and whom he justified...

He Pardoned and Forgave their soul.

Then, in the Predestination of God, those He Predestined to Call and Justify and HE has Saved THEIR SOUL,

WERE ALSO PREDESTINED TO HAVE THEIR BODY SAVED AND DELIVERED WHEN THEY ARE GLORIFIED.

From our perspective, they will be Glorified, but from GOD's perspective they are as good as having already been Gloried.

Only children of God can hope to be glorified but they must wait for all the children to be born so they may be all glorified together at one time. This is the reason for predestination.

Like all of your other conditions on God and His Word, such as Predestination not involving an individual, but only the individual's Glorification(?), and that God wasn't allowed to save souls, by the New Birth, prior to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection(?), including all the saints in the entire Old Testament (?) this restriction on God that "they must wait for all the children to be born so they may be all glorified together at one time", is at least equally bezerk and out of control with excitement.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

From here down, this one includes Predestination, but the rest are concerning Foreknowledge, which this one does, too.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

One thing I did not mention in my previous post that should be noted and receive some attention is the fact that "foreknowledge" is not mentioned in Ephesians.

Is that supposed to a big deal.

Is that supposed to be your big "clincher"???

Paul does not say the gentiles were foreknown of God.

When investigating the term foreknow, foreknown, foreknowledge, foreknew in the contexts of scriptures where these terms are used, we understand that they mean simply, "known before."

But for now, let's look at foreknowledge as it applies in context

A member of one of the 12 tribes of Israel
Foreknown.

I hope this helps my Baptist brethren

Were you wanting to talk about "Predestination"?

"Foreknowledge", in several of the above comments, is a different doctrine.

Let me help you out; you should have foreknown that when you created the O.P.

By the way, you are on a "Baptist Only" Forum.

What are you?

 

[AustinC]

I said all along that God predestined some like Moses & John The Baptist.. However, everyone else must come to Jesus in repentance, belief & obedience. But salvation is open to all living. that's why He gave us His word, & His preachers. Calvinism is horse feathers & chicken teeth.

I know what you have said. However, the Bible doesn't say what you say...and therein is the problem. You create a gospel that isn't in the Bible.
Now, you can hold to a non-biblical theology if you want, but for you to declare your false gospel as the Gospel of the Bible is just ludicrous and laughable.

 

[AustinC]

Thanks again for that detailed and studious rebuttal. What would we do without preachers like you?

You would fall into false teaching like you have done.

 

[JD731]

Were you wanting to talk about "Predestination"?

"Foreknowledge", in several of the above comments, is a different doctrine.

Let me help you out; you should have foreknown that when you created the O.P.

By the way, you are on a "Baptist Only" Forum.

What are you?

You are taking an adversarial position it seems to me and so you cannot understand these doctrines are church age doctrines within the framework of the church of Jesus Christ and in the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. Gentiles are being addressed as included in the Jewish New Covenant blessings because of the failure of Israel, the nation and people of God to receive them but partially. Israel and the nations are being prepared during this age for the physical and visible kingdom of Jesus Christ on the earth and it will be accomplished but after the church is gone.

Our Lord Jesus really did come to set up his kingdom as prophesied in the OT prophets, he preaching the "gospel of the kingdom" for 3 1/2 years during his earthly ministry to the Jews and they would not repent and receive him and even put him to death, and he rose again. I know the kingdom of heaven gospel was different than the gospel of salvation because every one of his disciples who preached with him were scattered and demoralized at his death. Is that what the gospel did for you?

I tell you this because Israel is one family. It is 12 tribes but one family. What everyone has in common is they are the children of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. The trinitarian signature is upon this family. Abraham stands in type as God the Father. Isaac, God the Son. and Jacob, the one who gives birth, the Holy Ghost. This family is born of the flesh and in need of the second birth. God does not consider each individual member as a son of God, but he considers them collectively as the son of God, his firstborn. It is God's will that this son is born again collectively. His kingdom on earth will not be established until he is born again, every member in the family. This is why God did not establish his kingdom and has established a spiritual kingdom that we are in now.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

John said "except a man" be born again, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Collectively speaking, Israel is a man. He is one and when he is born again he is one with God and can be led of the Spirit of God.

Here is what is going to happen when Jesus comes back to Israel to establish his kingdom on the earth:

Ac 3:12 And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

The most important thing is to know for sure that you are in the family of God through faith in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Things like I have been speaking of matters to those who are in.

 

[JD731]

How to become a false teacher according to some of the Protestant Baptists on this board, which are pseudo Baptists:

BELIEVE THE WORDS ONE READS IN THE SCRIPTURES

 

[Alan Gross]

John said "except a man" be born again, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Collectively speaking, Israel is a man. He is one and when he is born again he is one with God and can be led of the Spirit of God.

A nation is born in a day? "He" is born again? Born again?

Not a nation of God's witnesses on the Day of Pentecost I take it.

Here is what is going to happen when Jesus comes back to Israel to establish his kingdom on the earth:

Back to animal sacrifices?

Israel and the nations are being prepared during this age for the physical and visible kingdom of Jesus Christ on the earth and it will be accomplished but after the church is gone.

So, somebody told you God wrote those things, but they they don't mean anything to us now?

That's a lot of writing to say, "stand by".

You are taking an adversarial position it seems to me and so you cannot understand these doctrines are church age doctrines within the framework of the church of Jesus Christ and in the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven

Why would I take an adversarial position?

Like: "How to become a false teacher according to some of the Protestant Baptists on this board, which are pseudo Baptists:"?

 

[JD731]

So, my op is concerned with the act of God of predestination. We have it mentioned in two passages of scripture by the same human author in epistles he wrote two years apart. In the first epistle he mentions it, Romans, the context is filled with things that are Jewish, such as a whole chapter about the law of Moses, Romans 7. In chapter 8 we learn that the perfect law condemned Israel simply because it was perfect and Israel was not and we learn of a new law for them, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus with the warning that walking after the flesh, attempting to gain riighteousness by keeping the law, is antithtical to the law of life in Christ. A whole new relationship with God is opened up for Israel, that of children of God, because now God in the person of his Spirit dwells in that one who believes in Christ, and quickens his mortal body. This is the righteousness in the man that God requires and it comes from God.

In Romans 9 we have many names and references to OT personages and events that gentiles would know nothing about, such as Israel, Jacob, Abraham, the covenants of God, Pharoah, Esau, Sarah, Hosea, Rebekah, Isaac, Moses, Isaiah, the children of the flesh, the children of God. It is almost like a whose who of the OT history of Israel. Am I the only person that has ever noticed this. Can this chapter possibly be speaking of anyone in the New Testament. No, it is someone in the New Testament speaking about people and things in the Old Testament. The author of this letter is using these things to make some kind of point to someone in particular. Has anyone figured it out yet?

Before anyone jumps up and says, well, the gentiles are in the chapter and they are in the New Testament. I will beg your pardon and remind you that gentiles come into the picture through the reference to the prophesy of Hosea, where God says to the ten tribe federation called Israel that he was going to cast them out and call them "not my people." Every one of us knows that those who are not the people of God are by default, gentiles. The context and the usage of the word demands this is who he is speaking of and the fulfilled prophesy (remember it is 58 AD) "in the place where it is said not my people, there ye shall be called the children of the living God." Peter, James, and John, and Jude, all wrote to these people. James even addressed his epistle that he wrote in AD 45 to "the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad."

Just look at Romans 10. The first and last verses in the chapter are below.

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

I mean, every word, letter, punctuation mark, verse, phrase, sentence and paragraph in the chapter is in the context of Israel. There is not more than two men who posts on this Baptist site that will say it even matters about such a defined context. They will not allow it to interfere with their already accepted system of theology that does not include being true to what is being said in the scriptures of truth.

In chapter 11 the author informs that the disobedience of the many of Israel did not thwart the purpose of God because there is a small remnant of Israel now, as there have always been in the past, through whom he can keep his covenant people and give them the blessings he has intended for his people.Paul uses himself for this point, saying that while he is a child of God and is among this remnant, he is still an Israelite and still a Benjaminite. God has not cast his people off in favor of someone else, but for this time when his nation is in blindness to the will of God, he will bless the remnant, not through the principle of law, but through the principle of promise. He will give them the spiritual blessings of the new covenant, which is the Spirit of God, forgiveness of sins, and the new birth as children of God. He would call these believing Jews, not Israel, but the remnant according to the election of grace.

He finally comes to the place when he explains to the gentiles who have obviously been saved and enjoy the same privileges as do the Jewish believers. There has now been 18 years of history when Paul wrote this letter where gentiles and Jews fellowshipped, sometimes in the same local assembly of believers and as equals. He begins to address the gentiles in 11:13, when he says this: "13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" He does not say to the gentiles that God has now transferred his covenants to them, or that he has made some other covenant with them, but he says they have been likewise made partakers of the blessings with the Jewish remnant and warned them that they will continue in these blessings only as long as they continue to believe. It is intimated that at some point this will happen in which instance the fullness of the gentiles will have occurred and God would then begin to deal once again with Israel and bring them to a place where they will be saved as a people.

If the words and context of this wonderful Bible, that God has given to us to know his mind, is ignored and not believed, a person will make up his own theology and live by his own rules. The end of that mindset will not be pretty.

I have more to say but the idea of predestination is in the context of the remnant according to the election of grace in the epistle to the Romans. I have more to say on this later.

 

[robycop3]

I know what you have said. However, the Bible doesn't say what you say...and therein is the problem. You create a gospel that isn't in the Bible.
Now, you can hold to a non-biblical theology if you want, but for you to declare your false gospel as the Gospel of the Bible is just ludicrous and laughable.

Nothing false about Jesus saying "whoever", "whoever will", or "whoever believes in Him". Not one "whoever if elect". The false gospel is yours, with your calvinism.

 

[AustinC]

Nothing false about Jesus saying "whoever", "whoever will", or "whoever believes in Him". Not one "whoever if elect". The false gospel is yours, with your calvinism.

What I note is that you are attempting to create a theology from short phrases that are less than a sentence, while not even caring about the context. Share the passage and we can look at it together. What you have here is nothing of value.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nothing false about Jesus saying "whoever", "whoever will", or "whoever believes in Him".

Nothing false at all. Every Calvinist believes that. It's just that, '.... The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'

Not one "whoever if elect".

Matthew 11:25-27.
Luke 10:21-24.
John 6:37-40.
John 10:25-30.
John 17:9.
Romans 11:7
Etcetera, etcetera.

 

[Alan Gross]

New So, my op is concerned with the act of God of predestination.

Then, why don't you talk talk talk about Predestination, instead of only your own personal Determinations?

There is not more than two men who posts on this Baptist site that will say it even matters about such a defined context. They will not allow it to interfere with their already accepted system of theology that does not include being true to what is being said in the scriptures of truth.

So, what are you?

And why are you so familiar with and wanting to actually be the one, that genuinely; "will not allow it to interfere with their already accepted system of theology that does not include being true to what is being said in the scriptures of truth"?

 

[Alan Gross]

Nothing false at all. Every Calvinist believes that. It's just that, '.... The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.'

Amen. And it looks like God said and He believes it, too.

Matthew 11:25-27.
Luke 10:21-24.
John 6:37-40.
John 10:25-30.
John 17:9.
Romans 11:7
Etcetera, etcetera.

The "whoever" that believe become manifest by God saving them that they were obviously the Elect.

Then, the "whosoever" that don't believe where condemned already and simply manifest their hatred of God, and will not come unto Him that they might have Life.

He talks all about it.

 

[37818]

. . . they were obviously the Elect.

The election follows one's calling. It does not precede it. ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ." Matthew 22:13.

 

[AustinC]

The election follows one's calling. It does not precede it. ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ." Matthew 22:13.

Nope, you are wrong. The election, the chosing, the adoption, all were decided before the foundation of the world.

There is a universal message to all. For those who do not respond, it is a message of condemnation. For those who were chosen before the world began, it is the message of their shepherd. (John 10)

 

[Silverhair]

What I note is that you are attempting to create a theology from short phrases that are less than a sentence, while not even caring about the context. Share the passage and we can look at it together. What you have here is nothing of value.

Your continued denial of scripture is telling there Austin. What I do note is that you want to create a theology based upon imagined meanings of words and verses.

Are you going to deny what these verses say

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Austin where is your whoever is one of the elect verse?

 

[AustinC]

Your continued denial of scripture is telling there Austin. What I do note is that you want to create a theology based upon imagined meanings of words and verses.

Are you going to deny what these verses say

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Austin where is your whoever is one of the elect verse?

I don't deny any of those verses.

Question: Who is the cause of a person believing?

Is the cause the human will or is the cause the Holy Spirit?

 

[Silverhair]

I don't deny any of those verses.

Question: Who is the cause of a person believing?

Is the cause the human will or is the cause the Holy Spirit?

Well if you do it biblically it is the person that believes in response to the influence of God. God is actively working in and through creation, conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."