Why Do Conditionalists Contradict Themselves and Pray to God for Salvation?

[Silverhair]

Those that believe on His Son are the elect. But it is essential that they believe and therefore faith is a "condition". Calvinists understand though that God does not have to sit and wait to see what you are going to do. The Holy Spirit will work with you and bring you to faith. He will not believe for you. But you do not have in your own natural inclination the tendency to come to Christ by faith. The very idea of that seems ridiculous to natural men. They might be willing to try to straighten up their lives, or go something good for someone else or even subscribe to a set of religious principles or dogmas, or submit to baptism or any number of things.

I have been saying this for a long time on this board, God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. That is what the bible shows us but for some reason many Calvinists do not want to understand or accept this.

Curious Dave where do you get the idea that man could not respond to the drawing of God as show above. The way you write it seems that you think that the only way a person would turn to Christ is if God caused them to do so? But if that view were true then we have to wonder why everyone does not turn to Christ as we know that God desires all to come to faith.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So either God is being disingenuous or man actually does have the natural ability to come to faith.

 

[DaveXR650]

Curious Dave where do you get the idea that man could not respond to the drawing of God as show above.

The actual drawing of God might be enough. There are whole debates over exactly what "to draw" means in that sense. I just think that if you look at all the different scriptures it appears there is some kind of change or enlightening or quickening that occurs when or before a man gets saved. In other words the Holy Spirit is actively at work. I don't pretend to know how all this works. I don't fight with someone who says you believe first and then are born again, but I imagine you probably are born again as or before you believe.

And I do believe this. There is more going on than God just putting out "the plan" for salvation and then leaving it up to folks to figure out what to do with it. No one would get saved in that case. Our natural inclination is not to review the evidence and then decide for Christ. We probably should be able to do that. But we are not inclined to. Our will is free but just not inclined in that direction. Rather, we are inclined to explain away our sin, figure that compared to others we can at least get a "C", try to balance the scales with some good works, or just blow off the gospel like it's nothing.

 

[kyredneck]

Dave God's plan for election is clear in the bible

Yes, it is clear:

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

 

[Silverhair]

The actual drawing of God might be enough. There are whole debates over exactly what "to draw" means in that sense. I just think that if you look at all the different scriptures it appears there is some kind of change or enlightening or quickening that occurs when or before a man gets saved. In other words the Holy Spirit is actively at work. I don't pretend to know how all this works. I don't fight with someone who says you believe first and then are born again, but I imagine you probably are born again as or before you believe.

And I do believe this. There is more going on than God just putting out "the plan" for salvation and then leaving it up to folks to figure out what to do with it. No one would get saved in that case. Our natural inclination is not to review the evidence and then decide for Christ. We probably should be able to do that. But we are not inclined to. Our will is free but just not inclined in that direction. Rather, we are inclined to explain away our sin, figure that compared to others we can at least get a "C", try to balance the scales with some good works, or just blow off the gospel like it's nothing.

Dave I think we may be speaking past each other here. What more could be considered being drawn by God beside what I had written "God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion." The only other option would be that God drags/forces man to come to Him. Is that the debate that you are referring to?

You wrote "I imagine you probably are born again as or before you believe." now I can agree with the saved as you believe but the saved before you believe is not biblical. If one is saved prior to faith then why is faith necessary. It then becomes just an after thought. Additionally if God has to give you faith to believe then can it really be called faith.

Why would you conclude that if God made the "plan" for salvation then no one would be saved. Do you not think that God could give man, who is made in His image, the ability to consider the various pieces of information and then make the actual decision to trust God for their salvation? By some of your statements you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. There are numerous scriptures that show man making choices. It seems that on one hand you are saying that man has a free will but then on the other hand you say well his free will is not really free as he would never chose that way. Why not?

As you said and I agree man is inclined to overlook sin but that does not mean he will always do so. That is just a position that comes from your theological view, not from the bible. God must have thought that man could make free will choices.
Gen 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Again in the NT we see God expecting man to make real choices
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,...

Or do you think God was being disingenuous here?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, it is clear:

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

KY I agree the plan is clear, those that believe in His son will be saved.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

The only other option would be that God drags/forces man to come to Him. Is that the debate that you are referring to?

Yes it is. And I'm aware of the various interpretive arguments on this. If all you mean is that you feel that you have decided to come to Christ, ask for forgiveness of your sins, let go of all efforts to save yourself and rely only on Christ and the provision he has made by His death then I don't have any objection to what you are saying. I just believe that the Holy Spirit brought you to that and if He hadn't been at work you would not have believed. It seems like you believe that too.

Now you mentioned conviction and the word. I agree. I say those are of the Holy Spirit. The word of God is empowered by the Holy Spirit otherwise it is just words on paper which is why some prominent atheists are students of the word yet it never affects them. (But there are notable exceptions). Whether the conviction can be resisted - well the Puritans thought it often was, either for a time, sometimes a long time, in the case of those effectually called or in the case of the non elect it is indeed resisted.

There are verses that suggest a specific "calling" that occurs. If salvation is not a result of that then I assume only more astute and wise people in their natural state, are going to be the ones who come to Christ. After all, it is the smartest thing a person can do. We don't tend to see that. In fact, those with high IQ's at least in my experience tend to think the gospel is really stupid. And the Bible confirms that observation. Something else is going on with people getting saved. It's very obvious.

 

[kyredneck]

KY I agree the plan is clear, those that believe in His son will be saved.

Those that believe are His elect, "being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth",

Period.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes it is. And I'm aware of the various interpretive arguments on this. If all you mean is that you feel that you have decided to come to Christ, ask for forgiveness of your sins, let go of all efforts to save yourself and rely only on Christ and the provision he has made by His death then I don't have any objection to what you are saying. I just believe that the Holy Spirit brought you to that and if He hadn't been at work you would not have believed. It seems like you believe that too.

Now you mentioned conviction and the word. I agree. I say those are of the Holy Spirit. The word of God is empowered by the Holy Spirit otherwise it is just words on paper which is why some prominent atheists are students of the word yet it never affects them. (But there are notable exceptions). Whether the conviction can be resisted - well the Puritans thought it often was, either for a time, sometimes a long time, in the case of those effectually called or in the case of the non elect it is indeed resisted.

There are verses that suggest a specific "calling" that occurs. If salvation is not a result of that then I assume only more astute and wise people in their natural state, are going to be the ones who come to Christ. After all, it is the smartest thing a person can do. We don't tend to see that. In fact, those with high IQ's at least in my experience tend to think the gospel is really stupid. And the Bible confirms that observation. Something else is going on with people getting saved. It's very obvious.

Over all in your comments it seems you dismiss the God given ability of any man to freely trust in Christ Jesus. FYI I am not dismissing the power of God in any way. I agree that there are verses that suggest a specific calling but that in no way negates the ability of a person to respond to the gospel message without a specific calling. The Calvinist view always has to return to that special group saved and everyone else condemned. And all this done before time began. That is the problem I have with Calvinism, it is not biblical no matter how one tries to dress it up.

Do you not believe what the bible say about the power of the gospel message? You point to the Puritans but that is the same view that I have seen presented on this and other boards. The elect are saved no matter what and the non-elect are condemned no matter what. So it still comes down to the deterministic view of Calvinism.

You should know as well as I do that IQ has nothing to do with whether one trusts in God or not. Each person will deal with the information that is available to them and made their decision based upon that. Is the Holy Spirit one of those influencing factors, yes but so are a number of other things as I have pointed out in other posts.

 

[Silverhair]

Those that believe are His elect, "being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth",

Period.

You need to spend more time reading your bible.

 

[KenH]

. There is more going on than God just putting out "the plan" for salvation and then leaving it up to folks to figure out what to do with it.

That is what I was taught in the Church of Christ, in which I was born and raised - that God gave mankind the Bible and it is up to man to then hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, be immersed in water. After man does all of that, then he is born again and as long as he pretty much keeps his nose clean the rest of his life, then he goes to heaven; that as long as one keeps trying to climb that ladder to heaven, then at the end of life that God will reach down and pull you up the rest of the way.

I was also taught in the Church of Christ that everyone is born pure and doesn't become defiled by sin until they reach some "age of accountability", which means that before whatever that age might be, that if they die, they are "safe" and go to heaven. I was taught that the "safe" designation also applies to those who may be born mentally handicapped as they might not be capable of understanding what steps they are to take to be saved.

As I learned later in life, I was taught basically pure Pelagianism.

 

[DaveXR650]

Over all in your comments it seems you dismiss the God given ability of any man to freely trust in Christ Jesus.

Yes I do. As I understand it, if the Holy Spirit doesn't act on a person they will not be saved. I even believe that if the Holy Spirit departed from any of us that are saved we would not make it on our own. We are totally dependent on God for every good thing. I do believe man has a free will but I have a very low view of it and our natural inclinations.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes I do. As I understand it, if the Holy Spirit doesn't act on a person they will not be saved. I even believe that if the Holy Spirit departed from any of us that are saved we would not make it on our own. We are totally dependent on God for every good thing. I do believe man has a free will but I have a very low view of it and our natural inclinations.

God seems to have a higher view of man's free will than many on this board have. Since man can not save himself God has to save him and as the bible shows God has chosen to save those that trust in His son.

 

[KenH]

Yes I do. As I understand it, if the Holy Spirit doesn't act on a person they will not be saved.

Pelagians don't like the Biblical teaching of man being born with a sinful nature. They teach that man can stand on his own two feet and pull himself up by his own theological bootstraps.

 

[JD731]

Check this out!

Mr 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

The answer to his question: All the above came from without, from the body. eternal life begins inwardly, from the heart. This is the message.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, (Jesus is saying, here is what you do) One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

His reaction:

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Why would it be hard if they had no choice what or who to love? Logic 101.

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

These Jews were not Calvinists, for sure, because look what they said.

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith (as proof), With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Peter got the message. He and the others there that day had left his profession, his family, his aspirations for wealth, every thing to follow Jesus.

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.


29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world (age) to come eternal life.

They did not have eternal life yet, but in the age to come, which is this age after his death and resurrection, they would have eternal life in them. The difference between the man who started the conversation, the rich man, and these men is the heart attitude that governed the actions. The one man perished but these men received eternal life.

The lesson here is about the heart and the motivation of it.

31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

History has proven this to be true.

There could never be a more antichristian doctrine than determinism, framed within, and accepted by, mainstream Christianity as an alternate view of God, in my humble view.

 

[JD731]

Pelagians don't like the Biblical teaching of man being born with a sinful nature. They teach that man can stand on his own two feet and pull himself up by his own theological bootstraps.

Pelaganism is not a Bible doctrine. It is the giant that the Reformed fights. They are the only religion on earth who do. He is a created giant but he is not real.

 

[DaveXR650]

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith (as proof), With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

If you could cut out this verse you would have a good point.

 

[JD731]

If you could cut out this verse you would have a good point.

The rich man went away sorrowful in spite of the Lord loving him. Why? It seems you are missing the aim of the teaching of Jesus in this narrative.

 

[KenH]

He is a created giant but he is not real.

It is a real doctrine. It is taught in the Church of Christ. It is a false doctrine, just as Arminianism is, but it is a real doctrine taught by real people.

 

[JD731]

It is a real doctrine. It is taught in the Church of Christ. It is a false doctrine, just as Arminianism is, but it is a real doctrine taught by real people.

If this apparition were ever destroyed, the protestant religion (Catholicism lite) would perish within a generation, IMO. The battle is the only thing that gives it energy. There certainly is no joy or life in the evangelism of the damned.

 

[KenH]

If this apparition were ever destroyed, the protestant religion (Catholicism lite) would perish within a generation, IMO. The battle is the only thing that gives it energy. There certainly is no joy or life in the evangelism of the damned.