Featured Bible Study

Here is post #4:

Are we to tolerate false teachers because those under their influence say they are "experts?" Nope

Do you need to be an "expert" to read a NET Bible footnote concerning Revelation 13:8? Nope

Do you need to be an "expert" to compare and contrast versions of the same verse in say the NIV and NASB? Nope

When we find that these "experts" disagree with those "experts" do we throw up our hands and give up or are we to study to show ourselves approved? You do not need to be a "rocket scientist" to grow in understanding by study of God's word, only thirsty! ​

Here is the NET footnote on Revelation 13:8, available online to Martin:

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity. ​

SNIP

Does the Perfect Passive Tense indicate every name has been written or not written since creation? Nope. To make that claim demonstrates incompetence or a lack of integrity. Yes, the action had been completed from creation up to when John wrote Revelation. And in context, i.e. during End Times Judgement, the whole span of time from creation to the end of the age is in view.

Bottom line, the Revelation 13:8 translations by the ESV, NIV and NLT are agenda driven mistranslations and that is why the NASB, NET, LEB and WEB all say from or since, rather than mistranslating "apo" as before, and all say names have not been written since the foundation of the world, rather that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Once again we have misrepresentation without quote.
And once again, the Lexicon provides the range of meanings from which the interpreter makes the choice based on CONTEXT.

The claim that the context of Revelation 17:8 does not inform Revelation 13:8 is fallacious.

 

Note that this poster claims he is so inept as not to be able to access the NET Bible on line, yet charges me with a lack of qualifications. I kid you not.

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity. ​

Martin's claim about Greek grammar is false.

The ESV, NIV and NLT translations of Revelation 13:8 are agenda driven mistranslations. Full Stop.
Read the NASB, NET, LEB or WEB to view an accurate translation of that verse.

Bible study allows us to find flaws in the unstudied views from the dark ages, whereas those opposed to actual bible study find flaws in the truth.

 

Let's take quick look at a verse:
Acts 17:18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, “What would this idle babbler wish to say?” Others, “He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.

Because of my limited and dubious education, the"bolded" phrase falls outside my kin. Here is where some tools for study come in. Next to a bible (NASB in my case) I need an English Dictionary and a Bible Dictionary. In them I can quickly get a handle on obscure beliefs, and understand better obscure observations in light of study tools.

There is quite a difference between education and indoctrination.

 

One Pastor said, figure out what you want to say in your sermon, then look up verses of scripture to support your view. That is the "what this verse means to me" approach, which reduces bible study to a "anything goes" agenda. Anyone can make the Bible say what they want, but to make ourselves subject to what the bible says, that takes humility, study and prayer.

The actual message is not our view, but what the original author intended. To get there, we must have an appreciation of the history and culture of the author's original audience. Thus using a Bible Dictionary can help us bridge that gap.

 

Bible Study 101

The first step - Observation - involves trying to determine what God's intended message was to the initial audience. This involves looking at the verse or passage in context and following the flow of thought, asking questions like "What point is the author making?"

The second step - Principlization - involves trying to determine what timeless principles are being taught, applicable to the first audience and to us many years later. This is where we deal with difficult issues like "cultural accommodation" where something taught in the 1st century to deal with that culture, has no application now.

The third step - Application - involves trying to determine how to apply the timeless principles to our lives. As a side note, a teacher or preacher would need to tread lightly in seeing how it might be applied to their life, and then attempting to apply it in the same light to others.

 

False claim: "The Perfect Tense denotes a completed action. The names have been written, once and for all, in the book of life, since the foundation of the world."

Does the Grammar require that the names were written once and for all? No. But Martin makes this false claim. The grammar only indicates names were not written, rather than all names were not written. Thus is a fallacious argument. Simply put the Greek Perfect tense indicates a completed action with continuing in the present results.

Does Martin know that I have "no knowledge" of why they are translated erroneously? No of course not, he is not a mind-reader. Thus another fallacious argument.

Bible study allows us to find flaws in the unstudied views from the dark ages, whereas those opposed to actual bible study find flaws in the truth.

The ESV, NIV and NLT mistranslate Revelation 13:8. This truth is obvious and only trolls would debate it to sidetrack biblical discussion. Those versions also mistranslate 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. The reason is that they "fix" the inspired text to mesh with man-made doctrine.

 

The first step in bible study, once the needed study aids have been acquired, either from on-line sources or purchased, is "observation" as outlined in post #48.

Ar key facet of "observation" is the sentence structure. This of course is only helpful if the source language grammar has been translated using formal equivalence. The best choice for this facet of observation is the NASB. Another way to approach this facet of observation would be to use the NET bible, and its footnotes, free online. Dr. Wallace is a true expert in Greek grammar, and his interpretation of the meaning presented or required by the Greek grammar is as solid as one can find among fallible and biased commentators.

 

[Snip]
From the foundation of the world refers to since creation and not before. Other verses refer to actions before creation, such as Ephesians 1:4. From the foundation of the world does not refer to a point in the past, but to the whole span of time since creation and at the end of the age, will span the entire age of grace.

The ESV, NIV and NLT mistranslate Revelation 13:8. This truth is obvious and only trolls would debate it to sidetrack biblical discussion. Those versions also mistranslate 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. The reason is that they "fix" the inspired text to mesh with man-made doctrine.

 

Yet another 'you, you, you post slandering me and devoid of any useful bible study practices.

 

Folks, if you review this thread, you will find the usual suspects attacking bible study
When we compare the translations of the NASB, LEB, WEB and NET with the mistranslations of the ESV, NIV and NLT, we are not claiming we have more expertise than the mistaken versions, we are saying the NASB, LEB, WEB and NET have more expertise than the mistaken versions. No one needs a degree in Greek to read English versions of scripture provided by Greek experts such as Dr. Wallace.

 

This from someone who seems not to know how to do a word search. I kid you not.
Note the admonishment to set aside presuppositions, while presupposing my behavior.