Bible Study

[canadyjd]

". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work .among you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
Sanctification begins prior to our regeneration. So either way "in" or "among" preservation is meant. So I am not understanding your point.

The point is context.

If someone believes a translation should be changed, they need to make the case from word usage and context, not simply because the word can possibly be translated with a different meaning.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

Your post #4 is simply a rant. It contains no information about your understanding of Revelation 13:8 whatsoever. I don't have a NET footnote, whatever that may be. SNIP

Here is post #4:

Are we to tolerate false teachers because those under their influence say they are "experts?" Nope

Do you need to be an "expert" to read a NET Bible footnote concerning Revelation 13:8? Nope

Do you need to be an "expert" to compare and contrast versions of the same verse in say the NIV and NASB? Nope

When we find that these "experts" disagree with those "experts" do we throw up our hands and give up or are we to study to show ourselves approved? You do not need to be a "rocket scientist" to grow in understanding by study of God's word, only thirsty!​

Here is the NET footnote on Revelation 13:8, available online to Martin:

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.​

SNIP

Now, I expect you want to read these verses as if names are being added to the book of life at various times from the foundation of the world. Not so! The verb 'written,' both in Rev 13:8 and 17:8 is gegraptai, the Perfect Passive of grapho, 'to write.' The Perfect Tense denotes a completed action. The names have been written, once and for all, in the book of life, since the foundation of the world.

Does the Perfect Passive Tense indicate every name has been written or not written since creation? Nope. To make that claim demonstrates incompetence or a lack of integrity. Yes, the action had been completed from creation up to when John wrote Revelation. And in context, i.e. during End Times Judgement, the whole span of time from creation to the end of the age is in view.

Bottom line, the Revelation 13:8 translations by the ESV, NIV and NLT are agenda driven mistranslations and that is why the NASB, NET, LEB and WEB all say from or since, rather than mistranslating "apo" as before, and all say names have not been written since the foundation of the world, rather that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

SNIP
The point I have tried to make to you is that just because a word has a possible meaning doesn’t mean you can apply that meaning to any passage.

The way in which you attempt to apply meaning to words and phrases is contrary to the context, which makes the translation false.

peace to you

Once again we have misrepresentation without quote.
And once again, the Lexicon provides the range of meanings from which the interpreter makes the choice based on CONTEXT.

The claim that the context of Revelation 17:8 does not inform Revelation 13:8 is fallacious.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here is the NET footnote on Revelation 13:8, available online to Martin:

I know nothing of the NET footnotes. If you want to quote them, common politeness dictates that either you quote them in full or provide a link.

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.

This is correct IMO as far as it goes, but I gave the reasons why some versions and commentators take a different view and it has nothing to do with Calvinism.

SNIP

Does the Perfect Passive Tense indicate every name has been written or not written since creation? Nope.

Actually, Yep.

To make that claim demonstrates incompetence or a lack of integrity.

Once again, "folks," this poster prefers personal abuse to actually dealing with the text of the Bible. It is his well-known incompetence that leads me to hope that it was not his lack of integrity that led him to act that way.

Yes, the action had been completed from creation up to when John wrote Revelation. And in context, i.e. during End Times Judgement, the whole span of time from creation to the end of the age is in view.

No so, and this is where your lack of knowledge, not only of Greek, but also of English, shows up. The use of the Perfect tense shows that the names in the Book of Life have been written, once for all, since the foundation of the world. If the Holy Spirit had wanted to say that they were written at non-specific times since the foundation of the world, He would have used the Aorist tense.
But in fact, even that doesn't help you in your crackpot theology. If (impossibly) the Book of Life was not completed until John wrote Revelation, then no more names have been written in since then, which still means that all names today were written 1950 or so years ago.

Bottom line, the Revelation 13:8 translations by the ESV, NIV and NLT are agenda driven mistranslations and that is why the NASB, NET, LEB and WEB all say from or since, rather than mistranslating "apo" as before, and all say names have not been written since the foundation of the world, rather that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/QUOTE]
Revelation 13:8, NASB (1995). I don't possess a NLT, but the ESV and NIV translators take a view on the verse with which I don't agree, but which has nothing to do with any agenda and nothing to do with Calvinism.

Shame on you, @Van, for impugning the integrity of men who have infinitely more knowledge of the Bible and the relevant languages than you do. You are like a monkey playing with an expensive watch. It doesn't know how it works, so it breaks it.

 

[Van]

I know nothing of the NET footnotes.
SNIP
You are like a monkey playing with an expensive watch. It doesn't know how it works, so it breaks it.

Note that this poster claims he is so inept as not to be able to access the NET Bible on line, yet charges me with a lack of qualifications. I kid you not.

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.​

Martin's claim about Greek grammar is false.

The ESV, NIV and NLT translations of Revelation 13:8 are agenda driven mistranslations. Full Stop.
Read the NASB, NET, LEB or WEB to view an accurate translation of that verse.

Bible study allows us to find flaws in the unstudied views from the dark ages, whereas those opposed to actual bible study find flaws in the truth.

 

[Van]

Let's take quick look at a verse:
Acts 17:18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, “What would this idle babbler wish to say?” Others, “He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.

Because of my limited and dubious education, the"bolded" phrase falls outside my kin. Here is where some tools for study come in. Next to a bible (NASB in my case) I need an English Dictionary and a Bible Dictionary. In them I can quickly get a handle on obscure beliefs, and understand better obscure observations in light of study tools.

There is quite a difference between education and indoctrination.

 

[Van]

One Pastor said, figure out what you want to say in your sermon, then look up verses of scripture to support your view. That is the "what this verse means to me" approach, which reduces bible study to a "anything goes" agenda. Anyone can make the Bible say what they want, but to make ourselves subject to what the bible says, that takes humility, study and prayer.

The actual message is not our view, but what the original author intended. To get there, we must have an appreciation of the history and culture of the author's original audience. Thus using a Bible Dictionary can help us bridge that gap.

 

[Van]

Bible Study 101

The first step - Observation - involves trying to determine what God's intended message was to the initial audience. This involves looking at the verse or passage in context and following the flow of thought, asking questions like "What point is the author making?"

The second step - Principlization - involves trying to determine what timeless principles are being taught, applicable to the first audience and to us many years later. This is where we deal with difficult issues like "cultural accommodation" where something taught in the 1st century to deal with that culture, has no application now.

The third step - Application - involves trying to determine how to apply the timeless principles to our lives. As a side note, a teacher or preacher would need to tread lightly in seeing how it might be applied to their life, and then attempting to apply it in the same light to others.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Note that this poster claims he is so inept as not to be able to access the NET Bible on line, yet charges me with a lack of qualifications. I kid you not.

Van, I don't know anything about these NET footnotes. The NET is scarcely known in Britain. I could refer you to various Reformed or Puritan commentators without reference, and then mock you when you couldn't find them. But I wouldn't be so oafish.

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity. ​

Read my lips. THERE IS NO ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE QUOTED HERE. So far as I'm concerned it is absolutely fine. BUT IT MAKERS NO MENTION OF THE TENSE OF THE WORD TRANSLATED 'WRITTEN.'
Revelation 17:8. NKJV. '....And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world......' The quote from the NET has no bearing on whether the Greek word translated 'are ... written' is the Aorist or Perfect tense. But the word is gegraptai, which is the Perfect and means 'have been written once for all.' I understand that you do not like that; I even understand that it might upset you, but it is nevertheless the fact, so get over it.​

Martin's claim about Greek grammar is false.

It is not, and you can produce no evidence to show that it is.

The ESV, NIV and NLT translations of Revelation 13:8 are agenda driven mistranslations. Full Stop.

1. 'Agenda-driven is hyphenated.
2. They may be wrong. I actually think they're wrong, but they have reason for what they have written and you, who have no knowledge of why they have translated the way they did are being arrogant in the extreme.
Read the NASB, NET, LEB or WEB to view an accurate translation of that verse. [/QUOTE]
The NASB (1995) is fine The others I don't have, but the NASB, like the NKJV, clearly teaches that the names in the Book of Life have been written there, once and for all, ever since the foundation of the world.

Bible study allows us to find flaws in the unstudied views from the dark ages, whereas those opposed to actual bible study find flaws in the truth.

It does indeed. You should try it.

 

[Van]

False claim: "The Perfect Tense denotes a completed action. The names have been written, once and for all, in the book of life, since the foundation of the world."

Does the Grammar require that the names were written once and for all? No. But Martin makes this false claim. The grammar only indicates names were not written, rather than all names were not written. Thus is a fallacious argument. Simply put the Greek Perfect tense indicates a completed action with continuing in the present results.

Does Martin know that I have "no knowledge" of why they are translated erroneously? No of course not, he is not a mind-reader. Thus another fallacious argument.

Bible study allows us to find flaws in the unstudied views from the dark ages, whereas those opposed to actual bible study find flaws in the truth.

The ESV, NIV and NLT mistranslate Revelation 13:8. This truth is obvious and only trolls would debate it to sidetrack biblical discussion. Those versions also mistranslate 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. The reason is that they "fix" the inspired text to mesh with man-made doctrine.

 

[Van]

The first step in bible study, once the needed study aids have been acquired, either from on-line sources or purchased, is "observation" as outlined in post #48.

Ar key facet of "observation" is the sentence structure. This of course is only helpful if the source language grammar has been translated using formal equivalence. The best choice for this facet of observation is the NASB. Another way to approach this facet of observation would be to use the NET bible, and its footnotes, free online. Dr. Wallace is a true expert in Greek grammar, and his interpretation of the meaning presented or required by the Greek grammar is as solid as one can find among fallible and biased commentators.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Simply put the Greek Perfect tense indicates a completed action with continuing in the present results

Exactly so.
Revelation 13:8. 'All who dwell on the earth will worship him [the beast], everyone whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.'

'Have not been written' is the translation of ou gegraptai, the Perfect tense, Passive voice, of grapho, 'I write.' It indicates a completed action. When was it completed? From the foundation of the world, before time began (Genesis 1:1; Titus 1:2). What are the continuing results? Those whose names were not written in will worship the beast. Why will they worship the beast? Because they have wicked hearts (Jeremiah 17:9). Why will those written in the Lamb's book of life not worship the beast? Because, when they were so written, they were given to the Son to redeem (John 6:39 etc.) and to the Spirit to give them new birth (Romans 8:6; Titus 3:5-6).

 

[Van]

[Snip]
From the foundation of the world refers to since creation and not before. Other verses refer to actions before creation, such as Ephesians 1:4. From the foundation of the world does not refer to a point in the past, but to the whole span of time since creation and at the end of the age, will span the entire age of grace.

The ESV, NIV and NLT mistranslate Revelation 13:8. This truth is obvious and only trolls would debate it to sidetrack biblical discussion. Those versions also mistranslate 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. The reason is that they "fix" the inspired text to mesh with man-made doctrine.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The ESV, NIV and NLT mistranslate Revelation 13:8. This truth is obvious and only trolls would debate it to sidetrack biblical discussion. Those versions also mistranslate 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5. The reason is that they "fix" the inspired text to mesh with man-made doctrine.

Only a troll would continue to blackguard the translators of respected Bible versions, none of whom he knows, when he himself is utterly ignorant of the very basic requirements of being a Bible translator.
Only a troll would continue to push his crackpot translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5 (not to mention Matthew 23:13) despite having the passages explained to him by various people time after time.

When @Van bleats about being called a troll as he undoubtedly will, it should be noted that he started it.

 

[Van]

Only a troll would continue to blackguard the translators of respected Bible versions, none of whom he knows, when he himself is utterly ignorant of the very basic requirements of being a Bible translator.
Only a troll would continue to push his crackpot translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5 (not to mention Matthew 23:13) despite having the passages explained to him by various people time after time.

When @Van bleats about being called a troll as he undoubtedly will, it should be noted that he started it.

Yet another 'you, you, you post slandering me and devoid of any useful bible study practices.

 

[Van]

Folks, if you review this thread, you will find the usual suspects attacking bible study
When we compare the translations of the NASB, LEB, WEB and NET with the mistranslations of the ESV, NIV and NLT, we are not claiming we have more expertise than the mistaken versions, we are saying the NASB, LEB, WEB and NET have more expertise than the mistaken versions. No one needs a degree in Greek to read English versions of scripture provided by Greek experts such as Dr. Wallace.

 

[AustinC]

No attack on Bible Study at all.
Observe
Question
Interpret
Review the interpretation by seeing others comments
Apply

That is Bible Study.
Place your presuppositions in the garbage and let the text instruct you.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Bottom line, the Revelation 13:8 translations by the ESV, NIV and NLT are agenda driven mistranslations and that is why the NASB, NET, LEB and WEB all say from or since, rather than mistranslating "apo" as before, and all say names have not been written since the foundation of the world, rather that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The ESV, NIV and NLT are not agenda-driven translations. But it is easy to see that your dozen years of posting are indeed agenda-driven.

I have no problem with the wording of the ESV and NLT for Rev. 13:8. You have a lot of gall to say those translations of this verse evidence false teaching.

I know you are up there in years, but the NIV has The Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Please get new glasses.

 

[canadyjd]

Peace to you

 

[Van]

No attack on Bible Study at all.
Observe
Question
Interpret
Review the interpretation by seeing others comments
Apply

That is Bible Study.
Place your presuppositions in the garbage and let the text instruct you.

This from someone who seems not to know how to do a word search. I kid you not.
Note the admonishment to set aside presuppositions, while presupposing my behavior.