Calvinist dead

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 1 is a summary of human history in general. I don't think anyone on here would disagree that man is ruined and dead in the sense that we have all sinned and already blown it, we can't make amends for that, and when we try to reform we find ourselves still continuing to fail repeatedly, thus piling up even more guilt before God.

But the question is, is it possible for us to use our minds and upon hearing the gospel message, throw ourselves upon the mercy of God offered in that message. Or, do we need some degree of help in doing this. If so, then what does that help consist of.
Are we able and responsible to do this by looking at nature?
Are we able to do this if we are told the specific propositions of the Gospel?
Do we need some "help" from the Spirit in the form of conviction or is our natural conscience enough?
Do we need to be enlightened or quickened in our spirits first?
Do we need to actually be given a new nature or be born again BEFORE we can do this?

I have read the best of the non-Calvinist arguments and one concern seems to be a desire to vindicate God's nature by putting the power of choice and thus blame on man rather than God when men refuse to come. I find that a powerful argument. My problem with it is that there simply is no way to make the opportunities "fair" in our eyes and equal for all men. That goes against the reality we see. And, I have also found that Calvinist theologians also taught that refusing Christ was a great insult to God's grace and was indeed a choice.

For all men Dave?!?
Does God work by "chance" or by "purpose"? His plan of salvation is based, not upon anything in man, but upon His own sovereign purpose and grace which was laid up in Christ before the world began. As to the fairness of God's plan of salvation, we might state that all men have an equal chance to save themselves. If any will live completely above sin and keep every precept of the law, he then will have all the blessings of the law. Simple right?

 

[DaveXR650]

As to the fairness of God's plan of salvation, we might state that all men have an equal chance to save themselves. If any will live completely above sin and keep every precept of the law, he then will have all the blessings of the law. Simple right?

You're missing the whole point of the thread I think. Like I said before, everyone agrees that we have not and do not live above sin. That is not the issue in question. The question seems to be, is it possible, upon being informed of the gospel message, of the necessity of coming to Christ and repenting of sins, to actually do this? I believe that there is a range of belief on this that goes from saying nothing else is needed, man is fully capable and responsible for hearing about this and coming to Christ and has been endowed as a human rational being with the ability to do this; to - man is totally unable to respond and must be born again or given a new nature BEFORE he can believe. And there is a range of opinions that take an in between position where man needs conviction or influence by the Holy Spirit but can resist such things and makes the final choice.

It messes up the whole discussion when some of you come on and make this a question of whether you save yourself by simply deciding not to sin or else you have to be a Calvinist or hyper-Calvinist. No one, to my knowledge, on here is saying that a human ability to receive Christ or believe is the same as perfectly keeping the law or living above sin on your own.

 

[Van]

SNIP
1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither is he able, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 1:8 says that if we deny that we sin we have deceived ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So, just believe what scripture says and everything will become clear.
peace to you

Once again 1 Corinthians 2:14 is interpreted to mean "does not receive any of the things of the Spirit of God...."
Thus one can also interpret the verse to mean "does not receive some of the things of the Spirit of God...."

Context tips the scales to the second understanding because in 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul spoke using spiritual milk, to new Christians "as to men of flesh." Thus the natural man cannot understand some of the things (spiritual solid food) but can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

So just believe what scripture actually says and everything will become clear.

The fact that born anew believes still think and do sinful things is not in dispute, but rather if being spiritually dead results in "total spiritual inability." BTW, those born anew do not sin resulting in storing up wrath due to the penalty of those deeds, because, in the eyes of God, all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven and remembered no more forever.

Summary those spiritually dead, in their natural man or men of flesh unregenerate state can understand and respond to the gospel. However, spiritually dead cannot grow spiritually, as do maturing Christians because they cannot feed on spiritual solid food.

 

[kyredneck]

To recap, Calvinists are inconsistent about "dead".

I agree with you, on the point of Calvinist inconsistency with scripture. You've made your point well.

And the reason for it is that it's a made-up doctrine.

However, the absolute helplessness of man to come to God on his own (read Total Depravity) is not a "made-up doctrine", it is a biblical fact.

"dead to God" doesn't mean "DEAD" like this world thinks of dead. It means separated from God,

Yes, i agree. In the sense of Ephesians 2:1, which is addressed primarily to Gentiles, who were once "separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world, but now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ." (read 'once dead in trespasses and sins but now made alive')

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You're missing the whole point of the thread I think. Like I said before, everyone agrees that we have not and do not live above sin. That is not the issue in question. The question seems to be, is it possible, upon being informed of the gospel message, of the necessity of coming to Christ and repenting of sins, to actually do this? I believe that there is a range of belief on this that goes from saying nothing else is needed, man is fully capable and responsible for hearing about this and coming to Christ and has been endowed as a human rational being with the ability to do this; to - man is totally unable to respond and must be born again or given a new nature BEFORE he can believe. And there is a range of opinions that take an in between position where man needs conviction or influence by the Holy Spirit but can resist such things and makes the final choice.

It messes up the whole discussion when some of you come on and make this a question of whether you save yourself by simply deciding not to sin or else you have to be a Calvinist or hyper-Calvinist. No one, to my knowledge, on here is saying that a human ability to receive Christ or believe is the same as perfectly keeping the law or living above sin on your own.

And you are missing my point and it is that if you lived a life W/O sin you could be saved… so there is your way of doing it on your own. solution posted. Now can you do this, that is the question that you are reaching for. And since I’m not an idealist, rather a realist I’d be inclined to say no… but there is one who has done it.

So how are you saved, by being regenerated then accepting Gods saving Grace and that’s when you are converted to being a follower of Christ. It’s right there in the Bible.

 

[DaveXR650]

And you are missing my point and it is that if you lived a life W/O sin you could be saved… so there is your way of doing it on your own. solution posted.

I agree with that. And I think everyone on this board agrees with that too. The divide regarding total inability or being spiritually dead is about whether a person has an innate ability to believe. And if the answer to that is no, then what else needs to happen. Does a person have to be born again FIRST, in order to believe, or can they believe and consequently be born again. I think the Holy Spirit has to do something to you individually, before you will have any desire to come to Christ and believe. But I do not think scripture is crystal clear on that. And I don't know if it's conclusive that regeneration precedes faith, as they say.

 

[kyredneck]

I think the Holy Spirit has to do something to you individually, before you will have any desire to come to Christ and believe. But I do not think scripture is crystal clear on that.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 is "crystal clear on that".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with that. And I think everyone on this board agrees with that too. The divide regarding total inability or being spiritually dead is about whether a person has an innate ability to believe. And if the answer to that is no, then what else needs to happen. Does a person have to be born again FIRST, in order to believe, or can they believe and consequently be born again. I think the Holy Spirit has to do something to you individually, before you will have any desire to come to Christ and believe. But I do not think scripture is crystal clear on that. And I don't know if it's conclusive that regeneration precedes faith, as they say.

How else could you gain acceptance in god w/o belief? Maybe this all is hinged on the definition of Original Sin and if you believe that it’s passed on to Adams generations. See if you don’t, if you are Pelagian then Doctrines of Grace have no value for you. That’s probably what this argument is about I’m thinking.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How else could you gain acceptance in god w/o belief? Maybe this all is hinged on the definition of Original Sun and if you believe that it’s passed on to Adams generations. See if you don’t, if you are Pelagian then Doctrines of Grace have no value for you. That’s probably what this argument is about I’m thinking.

Too often conversion and regeneration are confused. They are not the same. Conversion is a change in belief or the course of one's life. Regeneration is a change in one's nature. The means of conversion is primarily the Gospel. The means of regeneration is solely the work of God's Spirit and because of the distinct nature of the two, regeneration must come first.

 

[DaveXR650]

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 is "crystal clear on that".

Yes. Verse 14 in particular would be the first verse I think of on this subject. Like I've said before, I think we do have free will. We are truly free to do what we want to do and we will do what we are inclined to do. And in our natural state we have absolutely no inclination to see any worth in the gospel or in Christ. But the counter argument is that being told of the fact you have broken God's law and have sinned, and being told of the result of this, is comprehendible by a natural man. He then has the ability to cry out to God for help. I guess the argument would be that whereas like the passage in 1Corinthians talks about understanding the "deep" things of God is certainly spiritual, just to understand you have committed sin and are under just judgment is within the realm of understanding by anyone.

 

[kyredneck]

But the counter argument is that being told of the fact you have broken God's law and have sinned, and being told of the result of this, is comprehendible by a natural man. He then has the ability to cry out to God for help.

The subject of the context hasn't changed within the last 15 verses; the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is the same that are perishing in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

 

[DaveXR650]

Too often conversion and regeneration are confused. They are not the same. Conversion is a change in belief or the course of one's life. Regeneration is a change in one's nature. The means of conversion is primarily the Gospel. The means of regeneration is solely the work of God's Spirit and because of the distinct nature of the two, regeneration must come first.

You might be right but I think the two are often used interchangeably in Calvinist literature. And Calvinist theologians often seem unconcerned about the order, or suggest it's simultaneous. And then you have so many cases where people seem to come along for a time, and get well along the path of salvation, and then fall short and turn away. The Bible and the Calvinist writers seem to say that the Holy Spirit was actually at work on them and yet they did not end up saved. This would make you wonder whether the idea of being spiritually dead and then being made alive as if a switch was thrown is too simple of an explanation. If man is totally dead, and the Spirit begins a work why would He stop partially. That is a question that comes up.

 

[canadyjd]

Once again 1 Corinthians 2:14 is interpreted to mean "does not receive any of the things of the Spirit of God...."
Thus one can also interpret the verse to mean "does not receive some of the things of the Spirit of God...."

Once again, the words of scripture are changed to distort its meaning.

1 Corinthians 2:14 doesn’t sat “some of the things of God Holy Spirit are spiritually discerned”.

Why not say “some of natural men are unable to understand some of the things of the Spirit some of the time…” ? That is essentially what is being said.

No thank you, I’ll just believe what scripture says in context.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

See if you don’t, if you are Pelagian then Doctrines of Grace have no value for you. That’s probably what this argument is about I’m thinking.

Yes. That's sort of what I was trying to figure in post 16.

 

[DaveXR650]

The subject of the context hasn't changed within the last 15 verses; the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is the same that are perishing in 1 Corinthians 1:18.

18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

Well said. You know, that kind of answers the OP. The fact that someone "cannot" receive spiritual truth would be excusable if it was say, like you were given a complicated formula that you were mentally unable to decipher. But those verses show the real problem - we think it's foolish. So the idea is sound that we have an inability and yet we are morally responsible.

 

[kyredneck]

we are morally responsible.

You still don't get that only the elect, the regenerate, are responsible. Only the elect, the regenerate, have the free will choice to serve God, or not. To all others 'the things of God' are foolishness.

But for the most part, even the 'Calvinists' don't get that.

 

[tyndale1946]

You still don't get that only the elect, the regenerate, are responsible. Only the elect, the regenerate, have the free will choice to serve God, or not. To all others 'the things of God' are foolishness.

1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Until God changes the man, the man is not changed... The man does not birth himself... Where does man get agape love if its not from God?... David in Psalm 51: 5 shows how we ALL come into this world and until God puts his love in you by his tender mercy... You have no idea who he is... Is the Calvinist dead?... Until God changes the man alone the rest of mankind is too!... Brother Glen

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[tyndale1946]

Calvinists love to talk about how people are DEAD and CANNOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ until God supernaturally makes them ALIVE.

The Bible says they are dead spiritually, but it says first they WOULD NOT believe until finally they COULD NOT believe. But it doesn't say they have total inability, doesn't say they cannot believe.

Now if Calvinists were honest about it, and truly believed they were DEAD, just like a dead body, which cannot see, cannot hear, cannot have its feelings hurt if someone insults it, cannot fight back if you strike it, cannot even know it if you set it on fire--if they TRULY believed all this, then WHY don't they believe what Scripture says about being DEAD TO SIN?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What about it? You who confess you were once DEAD TO GOD but are now ALIVE TO GOD and now you are able to believe on Christ, but could not when you were DEAD TO GOD, how about now that you are DEAD TO SIN?

You can no longer sin, right? You cannot see sin, hear it, can't have anything to do with it. You have TOTAL INABILITY to sin. Isn't that correct? Just as you were once dead to God, now you are DEAD TO SIN and ALIVE TO GOD.

Same logic.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The same dead is found in Ephesians and it is the same event

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Its called regeneration and you don't regenerate yourself... An unregenerate man CANNOT regenerate himself that's The Holy Spirits job alone... You are dead to God and can't come to God unless he brings you... God is Sovereign, man is not... The same voice that regenerates you is the same voice that resurrects you!... One voice two separate events

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Like I've been telling those since I've been on here... You had nothing to do with your natural birth and you had nothing to do with your spiritual birth either... Brother Glen

 

[JD731]

#6 was my final word on it. To recap, Calvinists are inconsistent about "dead". And the reason for it is that it's a made-up doctrine. No truth in it, because they don't understand "dead to God" doesn't mean "DEAD" like this world thinks of dead. It means separated from God, per the principle in the Book of James (if you recall, Adam had conversations with God after he was "dead", as did other lost people in Scripture.

Good logic MrW. But Calvinism cannot be dealt with by logic. According to 1 Cor 2, which has been referenced already, the spiritual man can know the deep things of God through the words God has chosen to make them known.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We have an impossible task of convincing Calvinists of truth through words in scripture. It is like treating a man with stage four cancer with aspirin. They will not accept that the words of God that he has given us are spiritual and one must approach them with reverence and awe.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The entire Calvinist system, TULIP, is built upon extra biblical words and ideas.They have added words and supplied adjectives that teaches contrary to scripture. If one is to be an informed Calvinist he must accept the Calvinist lexicon.

Calvinism is not just a doctrinal error, it is a system error. It is a cancer in the body and it will kill. There is no way to get to God without believing his words.

 

[DaveXR650]

You still don't get that only the elect, the regenerate, are responsible. Only the elect, the regenerate, have the free will choice to serve God, or not. To all others 'the things of God' are foolishness.

But for the most part, even the 'Calvinists' don't get that.

You are right. I don't get that. When you hear something, like the gospel, and you think it's foolish then that is your decision and you are responsible for it. Please, everyone notice that the above is not Calvinism.