Christocentric Theology (New Covenant Theology): The Big Nothing Burger

[JonC]

Just very quickly, Covenant Theology takes the whole of the Bible as God's eternal word and therefore says "Don't lust" as well as "don't commit adultery."
But I will make a further post in due course as requested; I just don't know when.

So in your opinion there is no true difference between NCT and Covenants Theology insofar as the Law goes.

I suppose I agree with that. The end result is the same. The differences are whether or not the Old Covenant Law can be divided into categories (NCT says "no"), the people to whom the Mosaic Law as an expression of God's moral law was given, and where we look to find the commands.

But yes, ... While the focus may be different, Covenant Theology, Dispensationalism, and New Covenant Theology does affirm the same idea about God's moral law.

 

[JonC]

So if I were a hired assassin and killed someone purely for money without even knowing him, much less hating him, would that be OK under NCT? You are being silly.

Of course not. You are being silly. I had hoped you responded looking for an honest discussion. That would be greed, BTW....desiring money over the well-being of another.

That is not the Law of Christ at all (that would be a mind set on the flesh and not on the Spirit). That would still be a form of hate, but it would also not be doing to the other as we would to Christ.

In NCT what you do to the least of men you do unto Christ.

NCT does concentrate, perhaps many would say to much, on Christ in us and the regeneration of man.

To answer your question in another way - if we are obeying the Law of Christ then exactly which commandments do you believe we would violate?

Put another way - what parts of God's moral law do you believe Christ violated? Was His obedience due to restraining His actions or was His obedience due to His very nature.

Would Jesus have hired an assassin to kill had He not read the Ten Commandments?

No, of course not.

Sins are manifestations of our sinfulness. The Mosaic Law addresses sinful actions. The Law of Christ addresses our sinfulness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I haven't meant to get involved with these multiple threads on NCT, but I will try to shed a bit of light if I can.
Firstly, my support of the term "Nothing Burger" was directed at the use of the term "Christocentric Theology," which seemed, and still seems to me, to be more of an advertising slogan than anything else. I have never heard of the term before applied to NCT.
New Covenant Theology I came across shortly after its inception, maybe 25 years ago. I am more acquainted with John Reisinger' book Tablets of Stone, than any other book. NCT is not the worst theology in the world, but I believe it falls short in its view of the O.T. law. All Bible-based churches have to steer, Like Odysseus, between the Scylla of Legalism and the Charybdis of Antinomianism. I believe that Covenant Theology is the best way to do that. NCT, as I understand it, holds that all OT law is abolished except that which reappears in the NT. Yet all of the 10 Commandments can be found in the Bible before the giving of the Law of Moses in Exodus 20.
To say that the 1644 Baptist Confession was NCT is incorrect Actually the 1644 was found to have faults in it and was quickly supplanted by the enlarged and corrected 1646 Confession. 1646 London Baptist Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader The only two signatories of the 1646 Confession who survived until 1689 were William Kiffin and Hansard Knollys. They both signed up to the 1689 Confession. Moreover, all the men who wrote and signed the 1644/1646 confessions were covenant theologians as evidenced in their books. They would hardly have signed up to something they didn't believe.
Lastly, the whole purpose of the 1644 confession was to establish that the Baptist churches was to show that they were not Anabaptists, but held to fully Reformed principles. The Confession begins:
'A confession of faith of seven congregations or churches of Christ in London, which are commonly, but unjustly called Anabaptists; published for the vindication of the truth and information of the ignorant; likewise for the taking off those aspersions which are frequently, both in pulpit and print, unjustly cast upon them. Printed at London, Anno 1646.'

The 1644/46 confession contain meaty chunks from two older paedobaptist confessions: the 1596 True Confession of a Separatist church exiled in Holland, and The Marrow of Sacred Divinity produced by William Ames, another Separatist and one of the originators of Covenant Theology. One last thing about the 1644/1646 confessions: they contain an equally robust Calvinism as does the 1689.
eg, Art. III. God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice. Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Ps. 115:3; 135:6, 33:15; 1 Sam. 10:9, 26, Prov. 21:6; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Ps. 144, Isa. 45:7, Jer. 14:22, Matt. 6:28, 30; Col. 1:16, 17; Num. 23:19, 20; Rom. 3:4; Jer. 10:10; Eph. 1:4,5; Jude 4, 6; Prov. 16:4.

V. God in His infinite power and wisdom, doth dispose all things to the end for which they were created; that neither good nor evil befalls any by chance, or without His providence; and that whatsoever befalls the elect, is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good. Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10,11, Eccles. 3:14, Mark 10:29,30; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Rom. 8:28.

VI. All the elect being loved of God with an everlasting love, are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor their own works, lest any man should boast, but, only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, who is made unto us by God, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and all in all, that he that rejoiceth, might rejoice in the Lord. Jer. 31:2; Eph. 1:3, 7, 2:8,9; 1 Thess. 5:9, Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 5:21; Jer. 9:23,24; 1 Cor. 1:30,31; Jer. 23:6.

I realise that I may have prompted more questions than I've answered, but this is all I have time for. And as I have a short holiday next week, followed by a Prayer meeting to lead and a sermon to give, followed by going into hospital to receive a shiny new titanium hip, I don't know when I shall be back here.

What position did the Anglican Church take in all this? As I understand it, the Crown was apposed to CT to the the point of execution… in Scotland specifically.Of course, they were probably always trying to push agrarians off the land… Stalin did that also, curse his soul in hell.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK so I’m not a Calvinist, a Reformed, a Presbyterian, Dispensational, Modern Southern Baptist, a CT or a NCT, not a Roman Catholic, not political yada yada. I'm a practitioner of Old School Baptist standards & practices ( though I’m not Baptized by them yet/ no churches in New Jersey ) So what position does NCT propose to offer the likes of me and/or of my ilk? Frankly, we are on our own scriptural trajectory.

 

[JonC]

OK so I’m not a Calvinist, a Reformed, a Presbyterian, Dispensational, Modern Southern Baptist, a CT or a NCT, not a Roman Catholic, not political yada yada. I'm a practitioner of Old School Baptist standards & practices ( though I’m not Baptized by them yet/ no churches in New Jersey ) So what position does NCT propose to offer the likes of me and/or of my ilk? Frankly, we are on our own scriptural trajectory.

The purpose is to emphasize taking a Christ-centered approach to viewing the whole of Scripture.

The purpose for you, I suppose, would be suggesting that you view the New Covenant as the "better covenant" and discourage viewing Scripture through a framework that is not there. Simply put, read your Bible. Ignore Christian philosophy. (Probably what you are doing already).

 

[DaveXR650]

The Law says "don't murder". But the New Covenant says "don't hate". The Law says "don't commit adultery". The New Covenant says "don't lust".

Thanks Jon. I've always thought that the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, as the Bible specifically says. But in that function it is also reflecting the true will of God for the conduct of humans, and that I don't believe changes. I certainly think the idea that since we are blessed with actual teachings of Jesus we should definitely follow His stricter application of the Law. I don't think, even as a Christian with the Holy Spirit indwelling you, that you ever rise above the need for the explicit Biblical teachings contained in scripture. Without those teachings you end up with what any Biblical counselor could tell you they face nowadays - the man who says he's a Christian but out of love for all concerned, doesn't see why he shouldn't leave an unhappy marriage and move in with someone he truly loves, to the benefit of all parties. Such is the capability of our human minds.

I'm not in any way suggesting that you or NCT teaches that, but I'm just giving the reason for the belief that the Law should still be used as a rule of life even though that sounds archaic. And, if it helps, the old reformed writers who did believe the Law was a rule of life indeed believed that the stricter interpretation of it, with Jesus as the teacher, was the right way to do this. No one has ever called for such a strict self-examination of our motives and inner thoughts than the Puritans. Sometimes they cause you a lot of pain if you read them seriously - maybe too much even. I do not think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that there is any Christian denomination that teaches that the bare performance of the 10 commandments, just as written, is sufficient for Christian conduct. There is such a belief among the general population of cultural Christianity and we have all seen it - when someone says "I never killed anyone or stole anything so I should be OK".

 

[JonC]

Thanks Jon. I've always thought that the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, as the Bible specifically says. But in that function it is also reflecting the true will of God for the conduct of humans, and that I don't believe changes. I certainly think the idea that since we are blessed with actual teachings of Jesus we should definitely follow His stricter application of the Law. I don't think, even as a Christian with the Holy Spirit indwelling you, that you ever rise above the need for the explicit Biblical teachings contained in scripture. Without those teachings you end up with what any Biblical counselor could tell you they face nowadays - the man who says he's a Christian but out of love for all concerned, doesn't see why he shouldn't leave an unhappy marriage and move in with someone he truly loves, to the benefit of all parties. Such is the capability of our human minds.

I'm not in any way suggesting that you or NCT teaches that, but I'm just giving the reason for the belief that the Law should still be used as a rule of life even though that sounds archaic. And, if it helps, the old reformed writers who did believe the Law was a rule of life indeed believed that the stricter interpretation of it, with Jesus as the teacher, was the right way to do this. No one has ever called for such a strict self-examination of our motives and inner thoughts than the Puritans. Sometimes they cause you a lot of pain if you read them seriously - maybe too much even. I do not think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that there is any Christian denomination that teaches that the bare performance of the 10 commandments, just as written, is sufficient for Christian conduct. There is such a belief among the general population of cultural Christianity and we have all seen it - when someone says "I never killed anyone or stole anything so I should be OK".

Thanks. I understand. And I have seen people completely dismiss the Mosaic Law.

What those folks miss is that ANY moral commandment given by God reflects God's moral law because it is based on God's own nature.

The point I am making is that the Mosaic Law is established in the Law of Christ. Where the Old Covenant Law looks to actions the Law of Christ looks to the heart - to whether our mind is set on or against Christ.

The biggest difference cones in when examining and the Old Testament Law.

I say we should obey God's moral law because the Law of Christ commands us to walk in the Spirit.

Covenant Theology says we should obey God's moral law because God commanded Israel to obey the Law under the Old Covenant.

That part is minor in that we all come to the same conclusion insofar as obeying God. It is major in how each handles Scripture.

In the end we are children of God obeying the same moral law. We just think of the reasons differently. And that, IMHO, is one way we can learn from one another.

 

[kyredneck]

Yep. He is more articulate than me....

Nah, not really, he just likes to use ten thousand words to say what could be done in five, like his mentor, Owen.

New Covenant Theology views the Law of Christ as establishing the Old Covenant Law. Thou shalt not hate

Good! God's civil law for today?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So in your opinion there is no true difference between NCT and Covenants Theology insofar as the Law goes.

I didn't say that. I will post again on the subject as I have time.

 

[DaveXR650]

Nah, not really, he just likes to use ten thousand words to say what could be done in five, like his mentor, Owen.

When I was in second grade, we had our reading groups where we would sit in a circle and learn to read. One day we're going around the circle and each person is reading a sentence. "See father run". The next kid "See mother run". "See Dick run". "See Jane run". "See Sally run". "See Spot run". And so on to each one in the group. I'm staring out the window, dying, when after all this this kid goes "See Puff??? See Puff ??? See Puff?? "RUN" I bellowed out. "You don't even need a book, you idiot!" Of course I got in big trouble for that. Look. If I apologize for that would you leave me alone unless you have something to contribute to something I post. Honestly, I had forgotten all about you.

 

[kyredneck]

Lol...."Brevity is the soul of wit."

 

[JonC]

I didn't say that. I will post again on the subject as I have time.

Sorry if I misunderstood you

Covenant Theology and NCT hold the exact same law in terms of God's moral law. They both view violating the moral commandments of the Old Covenant as sin.

The difference is that NCT views the sin as being against the Law of Christ rather than against the Mosaic Law.

When you have time, please explain exactly what laws you feel NCT adherents would violate by focusing on the Law of Christ.

I think it would help if we could get down to where the rubber meets the road rather than beating around the bush.

To help - NCT holds it is a sin to murder, to steal, to commit adultery, to covet, to lie, etc. because it is opposed to the Law of Christ. The difference is NCT looks to the spiritual state of which our actions are manifestations.

In other words, NCT holds the Law of Christ as establishing the Law of Moses because it is in the heart (the spirit) where sinful actions begin.

 

[tyndale1946]

"Brevity is the soul of wit."

Then again?... I couldn't just break it up, then it would lose its flavor... Brother Glen

Romans 7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[kyredneck]

When you have time, please explain exactly what laws you feel NCT adherents would violate by focusing on the Law of Christ.

Excellent point!

 

[kyredneck]

Honestly, I had forgotten all about you.

ROFL, approximately 140 words just to say that to lil' ol' me.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The purpose is to emphasize taking a Christ-centered approach to viewing the whole of Scripture.

The purpose for you, I suppose, would be suggesting that you view the New Covenant as the "better covenant" and discourage viewing Scripture through a framework that is not there. Simply put, read your Bible. Ignore Christian philosophy. (Probably what you are doing already).

Ahh yep. Out of curiosity, how do you know just who supports NCT… duh, I suppose I could always ask

 

[kyredneck]

Then again?... I couldn't just break it up, then it would lose its flavor... Brother Glen

FYI, there's nothing more concise, brief, and straight to the point than the scripture you use.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ahh yep. Out of curiosity, how do you know just who supports NCT… duh, I suppose I could always ask

see I have several Baptistic Reformed churches by me but no PB church. I’m going to one right now but they seem very lax and I hate that… another one my brother goes to is trying to indoctrinate him into their Calvinist web. The rest of the dross out there … we’ll, Kum by ya gathering clubs and getting worse. Welcome to the North East.

 

[JonC]

Ahh yep. Out of curiosity, how do you know just who supports NCT… duh, I suppose I could always ask

There are several theologians (and NCT theologies). If you could go back to 50 years, you could assume smaller Baptist churches hold some type of NCT.

There was a time when seminary training was not trusted among Baptists because of things like Covenant Theology and even Dispensationalism. The idea was a Christian goes to seminary and comes out an atheist (an exaggeration, but many of the ideas created in the academic area did not quite match what people read in Scripture).

If you could go back 50 years we could also go to a Grateful Dead concert. So there's that, too.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ROFL, approximately 140 words just to say that to lil' ol' me.

Did you count?!?