Why persons perish in Hell.

[JonC]

I agree. The OP does sound like salvation by works. The OP will need to clarify.

I don't agree with the OP (but as the Bible speaks of names being "blotted out", I could be wrong).

That said, this is the OP (@37818 's view):

I am of the persuasion everone's name starts out in that book because Christ paid for all human souls.

And names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sins.

I am also persuaded God who saves keeps whom He saves.


How do you get "works based salvation" out of that? (Serious question....I am not seeing it)

 

[AustinC]

I don't agree with the OP (but as the Best now speaks of names being "blotted out", I could be wrong).

That said, this is the OP (@37818 's view):

I am of the persuasion everone's name starts out in that book because Christ paid for all human souls.

And names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sins.

I am also persuaded God who saves keeps whom He saves.


How do you get "works based salvation" out of that? (Serious question....I am not seeing it)

Well, first there is a big contradiction in the OPs statement.
1) All are in the Lambs book of Life because Christ paid for all human souls. By that statement, all are saved and written in the Book of Life as being saved.

2) The names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sin.

So, God paid for all sins of all human souls. That's the first claim. But, names can be removed because God doesn't forgive the sins that Jesus paid for.

The OP seems to think that although Jesus paid the price in full so that no sin exists before a Holy God, yet all humans are unforgiven because their sins still stand before God as unforgiven.

This begs the question, "How did their sins come back as unpaid?" If one says that God cannot forgive the sin of unforgiveness then there is at least one sin that has not been paid for and the first sentence cannot be true. If one must do something, in this case ask forgiveness for sin, then Rob has correctly identifies salvation by works since, despite all human souls being paid for, there is an action by all human souls that would be required.

The last statement of the OP, "I am also persuaded God, who saves, keeps whom he saves" then makes the second assertion null and void because in the first sentence the OP tells us that all humans are fully paid for by Christ.

Jon, my question for you is...how can you NOT see works based salvation in the OP?

 

[JonC]

Well, first there is a big contradiction in the OPs statement.
1) All are in the Lambs book of Life because Christ paid for all human souls. By that statement, all are saved and written in the Book of Life as being saved.

2) The names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sin.

So, God paid for all sins of all human souls. That's the first claim. But, names can be removed because God doesn't forgive the sins that Jesus paid for.

The OP seems to think that although Jesus paid the price in full so that no sin exists before a Holy God, yet all humans are unforgiven because their sins still stand before God as unforgiven.

This begs the question, "How did their sins come back as unpaid?" If one says that God cannot forgive the sin of unforgiveness then there is at least one sin that has not been paid for and the first sentence cannot be true. If one must do something, in this case ask forgiveness for sin, then Rob has correctly identifies salvation by works since, despite all human souls being paid for, there is an action by all human souls that would be required.

The last statement of the OP, "I am also persuaded God, who saves, keeps whom he saves" then makes the second assertion null and void because in the first sentence the OP tells us that all humans are fully paid for by Christ.

Jon, my question for you is...how can you NOT see works based salvation in the OP?

How could I not? Don't know, but I don't. You are not alone in seeing it, so I figured it was there. I just don't see it.

Did Christ Ransom all of humanity? I believe so.

What about the names that are "blotted out" of the Book of Life"? (That could just be poetic license, as it is obviously a metaphor. Just wanting your opinion...I actually agree with you that names are written in the Book of Life).

 

[37818]

. . . God who saves keeps whom He saves.

So salvation can in no way be by any person's works or merit.

 

[Brightfame52]

A person's name is not in the book of life because of works.

Revelation 20:12, ". . . And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. . . ."

Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

Some persons names were never written in the Lambs book of life Rev 17:8


The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Were not written is in the perfect tense, a completed action in the past once and for all. That means they were never chosen in Christ before the foundation, thus the reprobate of the world.

 

[Brightfame52]

jonc

Did Christ Ransom all of humanity? I believe so.

No, He couldnt have ransomed them who are never set free from the power, captivity of the devil. The word ransom as in Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.The word is lytron :

1. he price for redeeming, ransom
   
   1. paid for slaves, captives
      
      
   2. for the ransom of life
      
2. to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins
   

Also the ransomed have been released from the penalty of sin. So they cant die in their sins, period. Now surely that's not all mankind unless you believe in universalism which is a false concept in my opinion.

 

[37818]

Some persons names were never written in the Lambs book of life Rev 17:8


The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Were not written is in the perfect tense, a completed action in the past once and for all. That means they were never chosen in Christ before the foundation, thus the reprobate of the world.

So you understand it to mean never have been written, even though it does not so. Got it.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you understand it to mean never have been written, even though it does not so. Got it.

Yes were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, its plain,

he beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There names have not been written ! This blows your unscriptural theory up.

 

[AustinC]

So salvation can in no way be by any person's works or merit.

Here is what you wrote:
I am of the persuasion everone's name starts out in that book because Christ paid for all human souls. And names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sins. I am also persuaded God who saves keeps whom He saves.

But, you only highlighted the last half of your last sentence. You ignored all the contradictory statements that stand in direct opposition to your last half sentence.

You have to live with the contradiction, not me. However, do you even see the contradiction?

Rob is not wrong in saying your assertion sounds like salvation by works. Can you not see your contradiction. Is it a blind spot for you?

 

[kyredneck]

How do you get "works based salvation" out of that?

Seriously? Consider the source. @AustinC is BB's #1 accuser.... it's the one thing you can count on him to do - accuse.

 

[JonC]

Here is what you wrote:
I am of the persuasion everone's name starts out in that book because Christ paid for all human souls. And names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sins. I am also persuaded God who saves keeps whom He saves.

But, you only highlighted the last half of your last sentence. You ignored all the contradictory statements that stand in direct opposition to your last half sentence.

You have to live with the contradiction, not me. However, do you even see the contradiction?

Rob is not wrong in saying your assertion sounds like salvation by works. Can you not see your contradiction. Is it a blind spot for you?

Have you considered that you may be reading into those sentences what is not there?

I am of the persuasion everyone's name starts out in that book because Christ paid for all human souls.

Ok...I don't agree but I get it. Christ did pay for all mankind.

And names are removed for not receiving God's forgiveness as needed because of one's sins.

Makes sense. Those who are condemned are so for rejecting Christ and as such remain in their sins.

I am also persuaded God who saves keeps whom He saves.

Also makes sense and does not contradict the other two sentences.


It appears that you are equating Christ dying for mankind as individual salvation, but I am not confident @37818 shares your opinion.

Often what we think are contradictory in another's view comes about when we place their statements into our theology.

 

[Brightfame52]

jonc

Makes sense. Those who are condemned are so for rejecting Christ and as such remain in their sins.

Is rejecting Christ a sin Christ died for ? If not, then Christs redeeming death doesnt redeem from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[37818]

First occurance
Exodus 32:32-33, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."

Second occurance.
Psalms 69:27-28, ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. . . ."

The Judgement.
Daniel 12:1-2, ". . . and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. . . ."

All interperters do not agree as to these books being the same book.

 

[Brightfame52]

37818

First occurance
Exodus 32:32-33, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ."

Thats under the Old Covenant Law dispensation, applied to national israel, its a stretch to make that be the Lambs Book of life, you must prove that since you assert it.

Second occurance.
Psalms 69:27-28, ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. . . ."

More Old Covenant Israel imprecation, more to the tune of reprobation. Still says nothing about once they were written in the Lambs book of life

The Judgement.
Daniel 12:1-2, ". . . and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. . . ."

Thats simply those whose names were not written in the lambs book of life Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

You failed to prove what you said, its speculation, not grounded in scripture.

 

[JonC]

jonc



Is rejecting Christ a sin Christ died for ? If not, then Christs redeeming death doesnt redeem from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I believe so. Those of us who are saved were not born believing. If we are not forgiven for rejecting Christ then we have no hope.

Think of Paul. Not only did he reject Christ, he actively persecuted Christians. Yet he was forgiven.

 

[JonC]

Seriously? Consider the source. @AustinC is BB's #1 accuser.... it's the one thing you can count on him to do - accuse.

He's just a bully. I think his reputation is well known around here by now.

 

[JonC]

So you understand it to mean never have been written, even though it does not so. Got it.

I think something we need to discuss is the Book of Life. Do you believe it is a literal object upon which names are written or do you think it is a metaphor?

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe so. Those of us who are saved were not born believing. If we are not forgiven for rejecting Christ then we have no hope.

Think of Paul. Not only did he reject Christ, he actively persecuted Christians. Yet he was forgiven.

Well if rejecting Jesus Christ is a sin paid for by His Blood, then evidently those who perish in hell for their sins cannot possibly be anyone Christ died for, thats would be injustice.

 

[JonC]

Well if rejecting Jesus Christ is a sin paid for by His Blood, then evidently those who perish in hell for their sins cannot possibly be anyone Christ died for, thats would be injustice.

Only under a specific belief about the Atonement.

If @37818 is right that Christ died for mankind as a whole (and I believe he is) and salvation is based on Christ being a "Life-giving Spirit" then it does not imply your conclusion.

That is one reason I identify more with early church theology and how they viewed Christ's death.

 

[37818]

Yes were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, its plain,

And a name blotted out would not have been found in the book from the foundation of the world.

Consider Luke's usage in Luke 11:50, ". . . That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, . . ."