Was it the Choice of God That You Were Born Into the World

[canadyjd]

A story of a birth that God intended but did not happen because a man prevented it. It angered God. Take the time to read this story.


Genesis 38:1-5
1 And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah.
2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.
3 And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er.
4 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan.
5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him.


Genesis 38:6-7
6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.


Genesis 38:8-10
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife,
that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also

Anyone may read the rest of the story but this incident proves more than one biblical truth. Number one - men can and often do interfere in God’s purposes through a birth.

You are in error because you don’t understand the scripture you are reading.

God’s plan was not thwarted by man. God killed Onan for his wickedness. This was called a leverite (sp) marriage where a brother would bare a son with his deceased brothers widow that an heir would have a portion of the inheritance.

Judah refused to allow his last son to fulfill this duty and the widow, Tamar, tricked Judah into laying with her and she did bare a son with him.

That Son was the grandfather of King David and is in the lineage of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s plans cannot be thwarted by the evil of men.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

I was not elected before the foundation of the world to be saved from my sins.

Only those whom God chose before the foundation of the world and gave to His Son to be their Surety are saved from their sins, which were imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness imputed to them.

 

[canadyjd]

No, I am saying that Fundamentalist Baptists and other Christians are likely not saved if teaching that hearing and believing from the heart the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved. These men, of whom I am one, do not believe that one must be elected for salvation before the world was created but that God will justify any sinner who will come to him by faith in name of Jesus Christ. I was not elected before the foundation of the world to be saved from my sins.

The Reformed have another requirement for salvation called election while they take away a requirement of mine of believing the gospel to be saved. Someone is wrong and you think it is me. If what you preach is true then I agree that what We preach is so different that it can’t be true.

You are in error because you don’t understand reformed theology.

Though some hyper-Calvinists do not believe faith is necessary for salvation, it is a very small group, most understand the gospel as the means by which God has ordained the elect to come to salvation.

The difference is we understand no one will seek God unless God Holy Spirit first frees them from their enslavement to sin,, convicts them of the truth of sin and the righteousness found in Jesus, and they respond with repentance and faith in our Lord.

It is not necessary for a person to understand “election” to be saved.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You did not read the whole story. God killed Onan specifically for spilling the seed on the ground. This was a Satanic effort to disrupt the highway of the seed of the woman who will eventually crush his head.

Satan knew this prophesy.


Genesis 49:10

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Tamar is one of 8 gentile women in the line of Jesus Christ, typical of the gentile church.

 

[KenH]

This was a Satanic effort to disrupt the highway of the seed of the woman who will eventually crush his head.

Satan never ever thwarts the purposes of God. NEVER!

 

[Aaron]

Yes you are stumped. If you weren’t you would not be asking me for the answer so you can be prepared for the next person who asks you this question. You would just answer the question if you had one.

Look, I am not trying to beat up on any of you Calvinists, I am merely trying to get you to think and believe what you read in the scriptures in their proper context. That is all.

Hmmm. Maybe you're not answering my questions because you can't. That seems more likely.

If you want to dialogue, start by answering my questions. Not interested in watching you shadow box.

 

[canadyjd]

You did not read the whole story. God killed Onan specifically for spilling the seed on the ground. This was a Satanic effort to disrupt the highway of the seed of the woman who will eventually crush his head.

Satan knew this prophesy.


Genesis 49:10

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Tamar is one of 8 gentile women in the line of Jesus Christ, typical of the gentile church.

So, again, God intended Tamar to bare a child in the lineage of Jesus and she did. Correct?

Do you think God was surprised when Onan spilled his seed on the ground? Do you think God was surprised when Judah refused to allow his last sin to fulfill the duty to Tamar?

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

You did not read the whole story. God killed Onan specifically for spilling the seed on the ground.

This is an example of man CHOOSING evil over God … we call that natural human propensity “Total Depravity”. God punished the sinner for his sin … we call that “Justice”. Tamar did eventually bear a son … we call that “the good pleasure of His will” (which is NEVER thwarted).

 

[JD731]

Hmmm. Maybe you're not answering my questions because you can't. That seems more likely.

If you want to dialogue, start by answering my questions. Not interested in watching you shadow box.

A couple things here.

Your posting is silly and immature and you do not seem to understand this debate forum and how it works. You can see that I chose the subject that questions one of the main tenets of the Reformed faith. I posed the subject as a question and in my first comment and in my first sentence and with my first word I answered the question. The intention is to be adversarial. It is a challenge against your beliefs and is an opportunity for you to advance a scriptural and convincing argument why your understanding is true.

This is my thread. I chose the subject. I ask the questions. I will interact with you and you will learn from my responses why I think you are wrong and I am right. But you do not come on my thread demanding I answer your questions before saying a single word in defense of your doctrine that God chose people whom he saves before creation when he does not even choose who will be born on the earth.

If you want to debate a subject that is peculiar to my system of theology then start your own thread and ask whatever questions you have. I am happy to defend the scriptures and explain my beliefs.

It is instructive that no Calvinist has yet attempted to explain this doctrine for the simple reason the scriptures don’t teach it.I am going to ignore your comments until you demonstrate a little better grasp of what’s going on here.

 

[canadyjd]

…..

It is instructive that no Calvinist has yet attempted to explain this doctrine for the simple reason the scriptures don’t teach it.I am going to ignore your comments until you demonstrate a little better grasp of what’s going on here.

Your brothers in Christ have directly addressed you questions in posts 3,7,12,15,16,41 and others with many scriptural quotations to demonstrate their belief and why you are in error.

It is instructive that you now claim no “calvinist” has even “attempted” to explain this doctrine which is a falsehood so easily demonstrated it’s amazing you have the guile to speak the words.

Since it is clear you have no desire to have a conversation on the issue, but rather to simply make your own opinions known, I will bow out of YOUR thread. I hope others will follow.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You are in error because you don’t understand reformed theology.

Though some hyper-Calvinists do not believe faith is necessary for salvation, it is a very small group, most understand the gospel as the means by which God has ordained the elect to come to salvation.

The difference is we understand no one will seek God unless God Holy Spirit first frees them from their enslavement to sin,, convicts them of the truth of sin and the righteousness found in Jesus, and they respond with repentance and faith in our Lord.

It is not necessary for a person to understand “election” to be saved.

peace to you

Precreation election unto salvation from the penalty of your sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, is the foundation of your salvation. The first and most important thing that must happen for you to be saved is God’s choice of you personally. If he doesn’t choose you then everything that comes after that, including the cross of Jesus Christ, has not power to change your destiny. So, if I ask you the question what is most important in this matter of salvation, being elected By God or the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you would have to answer your election, if you are honest.


1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

Precreation election unto salvation from the penalty of your sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, is the foundation of your salvation. The first and most important thing that must happen for you to be saved is God’s choice of you personally. If he doesn’t choose you then everything that comes after that, including the cross of Jesus Christ, has not power to change your destiny. So, if I ask you the question what is most important in this matter of salvation, being elected By God or the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you would have to answer your election, if you are honest.


1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You are in error about what I consider most important in “salvation” (a right relationship with God).

But, you maintain that if I don’t agree with you, I’m not being honest. So, this discussion is a waste of cyber space.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You are in error about what I consider most important in “salvation” (a right relationship with God).

But, you maintain that if I don’t agree with you, I’m not being honest. So, this discussion is a waste of cyber space.

peace to you

What you say you consider to be most important is irrelevant. If a man cannot be saved from the penalty of sins unless he is personally chosen by God to be saved before he created the world, Jesus dying a hundred deaths on earth would not change anything. Being chosen is by default the first and most important doctrine of salvation in Calvinism. Add the doctrine that men have no ability to believe unless God miraculously gifts them with faith and he does that only for the prechosen then that makes the cross an incidental necessity behind several other things.

Why am I wrong about election being the foundation of the Christian faith in Calvinism?

 

[canadyjd]

…
Why am I wrong about election being the foundation of the Christian faith in Calvinism?

Because you do not understand reformed theology, that is why you are wrong. You are obviously passionate about your beliefs.

Unless you can accurately state the reformed position from the point of view of someone that holds that position, you are doing nothing more than arguing with a caricature created in your own mind.

The doctrines of grace are focused on God, not man. The foundation of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ, Him crucified and resurrected. That is true because that is what scripture says is the foundation.

Those that hold to reformed theology base what they believe in scripture.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Because you do not understand reformed theology, that is why you are wrong. You are obviously passionate about your beliefs.

Unless you can accurately state the reformed position from the point of view of someone that holds that position, you are doing nothing more than arguing with a caricature created in your own mind.

The doctrines of grace are focused on God, not man. The foundation of the Christian faith is Jesus Christ, Him crucified and resurrected. That is true because that is what scripture says is the foundation.

Those that hold to reformed theology base what they believe in scripture.

peace to you

I have not misrepresented the teaching of Calvinism and Reformation doctrine as it relates to who can be saved and how they are saved and on what basis they are saved. Election by God of certain unnamed individuals before the creation of the world to be saved is the fundamental and foundational and driving force of this system whether one is a hyper Calvinist or a more moderate one. The very fact that God himself controls the dispersion of faith among sinners on earth and gives it as a gift to those only whom he has chosen to be saved is solid proof that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not the means of his salvation of sinners and has no effect on those who God has no interest in saving. Therefore being one of those chosen individuals is more important than any thing else in this system. It is foundational to the Christianity of these elect. It is a subtle change to the gospel brought about by the Reformers and many have fallen prey to it’s influence.

We are instructed.

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I encourage a reading of the remainder of this chapter.

 

[canadyjd]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Yes, thanks to you. My problem is not with individual Calvinists like you but with the system of Calvinism. I hope you understand that.

PS
If it helps any i do not remember a single like or agreement of any of my comments on this thread so you are solidly in the majority here. I am a lone passenger on a ship sailing across the sea of Reformation Baptists and Presbyterians..

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes, thanks to you. My problem is not with individual Calvinists like you but with the system of Calvinism. I hope you understand that.

PS
If it helps any i do not remember a single like or agreement of any of my comments on this thread so you are solidly in the majority here. I am a lone passenger on a ship sailing across the sea of Reformation Baptists and Presbyterians..

denying the Word of the Lord and the Power of God unto salvation

 

[atpollard]

PS
If it helps any i do not remember a single like or agreement of any of my comments on this thread so you are solidly in the majority here. I am a lone passenger on a ship sailing across the sea of Reformation Baptists and Presbyterians..

Just FYI: You got a "WINNER" for post #9 ... one of the only examples where you advocated FOR a Point-of-View rather than AGAINST a Point-of-View.

"then I will build you up and not tear you down, and I will plant you and not uproot you" - God (Jeremiah 42)
[... perhaps a lesson for His Children.]

 

[Piper]

The answer is no, not in most cases. Natural births happen through a natural process that God has set into motion in the beginning. The decision to produce children is a human one and several natural laws are involved for a conception and birth to take place.
The proof of this is in the very real practice of many Calvinists, and others, of family planning and birth control. Common sense says if a man and his wife are controlling the size of their family by human inventions then God is not. Therefore to teach that God has chosen who will be born again when it was not his choice who or how many will be born the first time is non biblical heresy. The truth is God elects all those who are born again by his Spirit when they hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who will agree that is what God says through his prophets?

It is God’s choice to provide salvation to all who are born and will receive it as a gift by taking sin away and not charging anyone with personal sins while they live. He did this by punishing one perfect man, his own son, as a substitute for us all.

Salvatiion must be received by faith before a man dies the first death because the Bible says, “As it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement.” He 9:27.

The second death has no power over the man who has been born twice.

I

If God does not have providential control, someone or something does. If there is someone or something outside God that he cannot control, they are greater than him. That cannot be true, or God is not God.