Featured A question for Cavinist

Romans 1:16 KJVS
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This scripture teaches us that those who believe the Gospel are born again and receive salvation. I feel like God gets much more Glory when man responds to that heavenly call than he would by making the decision who is and isn’t going to be saved. I do believe the Holy Spirit enlightens you to the truth that you are lost and on death roll. If we turn to Christ by faith, we are pardoned, but if we fail to place are faith in Gods Son we die lost and end up in hell. I also think of this scripture.
Revelation 22:17 KJVS
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

I agree with everything you say there. I just wish people would realize that there is a lot of overlap. That is why we have high Calvinists like Owen writing that Christ has no power to save you if you don't believe. You have every one of the Calvinist Puritans preaching sermons on "Entering the Strait Gate" or some version of how difficult it is to be saved and stay saved. Or how to avoid falling away.

And then you have free will preachers saying that you need to pray for someone to be saved. Why? If it's totally up to their own free will, what are you praying for? Or, they will warn people in their sermons to make sure you respond to the Holy Spirit speaking to you or else you may never have another opportunity. So at the practical level, where we live, there is more overlap than you think. I tend to be Calvinistic in theology but to me when scripture says "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" what it means is exactly what it says. And I can tell you most Calvinists believe that also.

 

That's why I said, "looks like it", twice.

I knew that coming from you with no citation and the quote not referencing scriptures that it could very well not be the whole story, nor what they genuinely believe.

So, of their other articles of faith, we find;

"Conversion of man

"Grace is resistible: God takes initiative in the salvation process and his grace comes to all people. This grace (often called pre-regenerating or prevenient grace) acts on all people to convince them of the Gospel, draw them strongly towards salvation, and enable the possibility of sincere faith. Picirilli states that "indeed this grace is so close to regeneration that it inevitably leads to regeneration unless finally resisted."[89] The offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied.[90]

Man has a freed will to respond or resist: Free will is granted and limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist.[91]

Conversion is synergistic: As Roger Olson put it: "[Arminius]' evangelical synergism reserves all the power, ability and efficacy in salvation to grace, but allows humans the God-granted ability to resist or not resist it. The only "contribution" humans make is nonresistance to grace."[92]

Roger Olson expressed those defining ideas in a more practical way:

""Arminianism," [...] is simply a term we use in theology for the view, held by some people before Arminius and many after him, that sinners who hear the gospel have the free will to accept or reject God’s offer of saving grace and that nobody is excluded by God from the possibility of salvation except those who freely exclude themselves. But true, historical, classical Arminianism includes the belief that this free will [to repent and believe unto salvation] is itself a gift of God through prevenient grace."[79]

They try to say man's Depravity is total, but then say God gives everyone the Total Ability to have "faith", or not.

Their Total Depravity not only does not mean Total Inability, by Total Depravity they really mean they believe all men ultimately have Total Ability, to choose to be saved, or not, and their salvation is all up to each individual.

Their attempted deceitful approach to wresting their Articles of Faith in this sharp twist is reminiscent of the father of all lies, for some reason.

ref: Arminianism - Wikipedia

 

Here are the articles:

ARTICLE I. That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

ART. II. That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness ef sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: “God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only. but also for the sins of the whole world.”

ART. III. That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. b: “Without me ye can do nothing.”

ART. IV. That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, elm neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost, -Acts vii., and elsewhere in many places.

ART. V. That those who an incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his lifegiving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand; and if only they are ready for the conflict. and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable. through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds.

Those things that I marked in bold just say, "Jesus is NOT the Savior", but has "obtained" for everyone the possibly of choosing to save themselves, or not, (thus, automatically negating any allusion to Total Depravity) and if they do choose to believe on their own, still, "Jesus is NOT The Savior", because they can fall out and unsave themselves from their assumed false religion.

They may attempt to word things as if their is a "Total Depravity" element to their teachings, but only Exhibit Total Depravity, in lights.[/QUOTE]

 

Because the gift has been poured out from heaven like life giving rain water falls from heaven, not on the elect but on every one and all can drink and live. Rain falls on the just and the unjust. Those who drink will live and those who do not will not live.

Nature teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The gift on the earth is pooled up and so deep it is over all our heads and all one must do is open their mouths and drink.

Jesus Christ has made the payment so the gift will be free. He paid with his own blood. For you Calvinists and mannabes to make statements like you make offends me, having been a drinker of the water, not because God loved me more than you but equally with you because my need for water of life was equal with yours, whoever you are.

As far as I am concerned Calvinists deny the gospel when they say the water is there but some cannot drink because God forbids it.

That is just awful.

 

This is good because it let's the OP realize that the nastiness goes both ways. I was trying to be conciliatory but since you choose to go full on nasty why don't you answer the question. Once again. If the premise of the absolute supremacy of a person's free will is the end all and sole determiner then why do you pray for someone to get saved? If you have a person you have been talking to, or if they have been coming to services and you pray for them - are you not asking that the Holy Spirit would manipulate their sovereign free will?

And you completely overlooked the references to Owen and other Calvinist Puritans who preached sermons imploring people to turn to Christ and warning them not to fall away. They were Calvinists whether you like it or not. Have you ever heard of Spurgeon?

 

Calvinists pray for the salvation of others because we really do believe that God controls salvation and that He can save us/them because He is sovereign and controls the heart of man.

non Cals May pray for the salvation of others, but in reality, their god is impotent to truly save sinners -

especially since their so called free will actually prevents God from changing them/their hearts

 

And God does that to demonstrate that He is a good God, that He answers the prayers of His people and that He truly is a God of love.

we as sinners do deserve hell, God saves us out of pity and mercy for our poor wicked souls

 

I will answer the question of why pray for the salvation of someone in particular. They are praying for the providential actions of God toward that person or persons circumstances. For instance, a missionary might pray for the mission field he goes to where the gospel has not been preached. He is asking God for opportunities and an environment conducive for his mission of preaching the gospel to their ears. He knows the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Men are the arm of God in the salvation of souls. There will not be a single elect soul, not one, who has not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and believed it from his heart.

God has done everything that is needed for all sinners to be saved. He causes it to rain life giving water from heaven in such abundance that all might drink and be satisfied. In the 3 1/2 years of the tribulation that is soon to come, called the day of the Lord, when he will judge this world and rid all sinners out of it, it will not rain and reservoirs of water such as the rivers and lakes will be corrupted and men who have not been saved before those days will no longer have the free access to water and God will not save a single one of them.

The rain that God pours out from heaven is a gift that he has given. It will do no one any good until they drink it. That is how one receives the gift. It must be on the inside of a man in order to give him eternal life. He drinks it once only. Here God is in Acts 10, this is in the year AD 40, some 10 years after his death, burial, and resurrection, that he gives the gift to gentiles. Previously he had not given the gift to gentiles, only those of Israel.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Contention of Jews;

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God is sovereign over saved people because they willingly obey him from the heart. Sinners who have not repented and believed the gospel are in rebellion against his sovereignty. This is called sin against God.

God's baptism of gentiles speaks of the abundance of the Holy Ghost. He is everywhere, omnipresent. There is no where he is not. All can drink. Praise God.

 

You did and I appreciate you taking the time for that thoughtful response. I don't have any right to speak for anyone else but I agree with everything you said. For the sake of the OP pointing out harsh rhetoric and in response to some of the things you said rather harshly about Calvinist theology I want to say a couple of things.

First. While what you said above is true, there is still the matter of the person who is repeatedly sitting under proper gospel preaching. My question is, do you think it's proper to pray for that person? He has already had the legitimate blessing of being able to hear the gospel message. Isn't it true that any further prayer for him would be for working a change in his will? Even if the method used is by things happening due to external circumstances such as a near escape, a tragedy or anything that gets his attention - if it's providential in nature then it was designed to change his will. Do you believe there is a place for that? Not to mention just the fact that sometimes, after years, a hardened person hears one more time and it just "gets to them" this time. What was that? What just happened?

Also. If you pray that the preacher be filled with the Spirit when he preaches and if you believe that the word of God has actual "power" to save then when you really think of what that means - what else can it be than an actual power of convincing and drawing a person to Christ? If you do at all then there is some common ground with Calvinist theology.

Last of all, I would point out that the great missionary movement and development of foreign missions was by Calvinist organizations and Calvinist preachers front and center. Read up on William Carey for instance. My only point is that there is a lot of common ground and a lot of actual crossover in real life since these theological principles were hammered out years ago. I first found out about Calvinist Spurgeon by reading a sermon on the cover of a "Sword of the Lord" my fundamentalist pastor gave me in the late '70's. I'm not trying to convince anyone they have to be a Calvinist but at the level most of us live there need not be the level of animosity you see on the internet.

 

After the reformation in France you were either RC or Calvinist. In Germant you were either RC or Lutheran. In Switzerland you were either RC or Calvinist or Zwinglian. I think the main difference was in the communion. When the three held a conference on the Subject, Luther is said to have walked into the room and wrote on the table "This is my body" and wouldn't budge from that stance.

I would call myself by the old name of Particular Baptist.

The Church of England were Calvinist rather than Lutheran, although you wouldn't know it.

 

I am addressing your last paragraph titled “last of all” in this comment.

A few years ago on another forum similar to this one I conversed with a man who made a big deal about being a Calvinist street preaching evangelist. He claimed he believed and promoted the doctrine of.special election as it is taught by most Reformed, and he also believed the doctrine of limited atonement as well as the other petals on the TULIP. His heart attitude, he said, was to often weep for the unwashed as he prosecuted his calling of public preaching.

This man and what he said puzzled me greatly and after pondering his claims I was prompted to ask him two questions. Here they are:

1) Is there any possibility under any circumstances that one so chosen before the foundation of the earth to be saved could ever be be finally lost and eventually cast into hell?

2). Is there any possibility that one who was not chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be saved could ever be saved?

His answer to both questions was “No.”

Think of how silly and unlike God to evangelize and weep over sinners that God himself has no mercy and grace and love for. Think of preaching the gospel to them when the word “gospel” means good news, glad tidings. This Reformed man had a message that did not need him preaching the word because he also believed that salvation was “all of God.”
.
Putting this in perspective, there are about 7 billion people alive on the earth now we are told. I think that would equal seven hundred million people. Let’s just say that one percent of them are Reformed and have a surety of being saved. That is 10 million people whom God intends to save. That seems like a large number until one compares it with the two hundred and ninety million souls who are left that have no hope and the gospel has no power to save them because God has willed it so. Can the message preached to them really be called the gospel, good news, glad tidings?

Imagine sprinkling ten million people among the other two hundred and ninety million world wide. This would make the Reformed as scarce as hen’s teeth among them. One could envision the evangelist having a football stadium full of people to preach to with the likelihood that not a single one would qualify for the hope the evangelist is bringing concerning the efficacy of the cross of Christ and it’s ability to save the hearer.

Reasoning like this from the standpoint of reality and common sense and logic has convinced me to question and oppose the TULIP and to warn others about it. However, let me quickly say that the Calvinist evangelist, if he is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ without including all these doubts he has about who can be saved, then he can be effective in getting people saved. It is not the man preaching the gospel that saves people, though he is an integral part in the equation because he gives voice to the gospel, but the gospel itself that has power to save anyone and every one who hears it. Paul, our apostle, says these words and I agree with him wholeheartedly:


Philippians 1:15-18
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

That’s because you don’t understand the doctrines of grace.

To use your analogy, the watery is there but men are dead on the bottom of the lake. Therefore, they have no desire to drink or eat anything spiritual unless God pulls them up and gives them life so they can respond with faith.

peace to you

 

JD. I am not trying to make you into a Calvinist. My only point is what you noticed - that at a practical street level, our theologies are of limited use. I promise you the guy you mentioned was sincere. I know too many Calvinists like that and I personally know a 5 pointer street preacher currently doing this. As far as your 2 questions, I think those are valid questions for a Calvinist. But to get the whole picture you have to go a little further on each question:
1. Is there any possibility that an elect person, chosen before the foundation of the world, can be saved without personally coming to faith in Christ and repenting of their sins?
2. Is there any possibility that a person not elect and not chosen, either passed over or actively chosen for reprobation - is it possible that upon hearing the gospel that they want to believe and come to Christ but aren't allowed because of God's decree? Or, is the true situation that these are those who unfailingly reject the gospel by their own free will, even if they are influenced by the Word and by proper preaching?

Because that is what Calvinists believe and it's what they preach. I hope you understand me when I say this. The points you raised are valid questions. My argument is that we live in real time and have human minds. If you try to do too much with a theology you get immediately into a logical problem.

I really started noticing this when I read Spurgeon who talked about "soul winning" which I thought was owned by fundamentalists and then later when I read Horatius Bonar's "Words to Winners of Souls" which obviously was about the same subject. Also, the Puritan Calvinists, including the American Jonathan Edwards actually preached in a way that would sound very familiar to most regular Baptists, not just Calvinists. My only point is there there is a lot of common ground. I'm really not trying to convert you but the OP was about the animosity levels and if they were necessary. I say no.

 

Question. What Scripture specifies "repenting of their sins" in having faith in Christ?

 

What is not being understood? Give at least one Scripture.

 

What is misunderstood about the DoG

Under Calvinism
God unconditionally chooses to only save some, but not all,
God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and
God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.
If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.
Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO.
What is shows is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God and His stated desire for humanity.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The DoG is the opposite of what God desires.

If Calvinism is true I can't think of a better excuse for an atheist than the one that Calvinism ultimately gives him.
They can honestly say, if Calvinism is true I was born a God hater without the ability to believe in my own God unless He unilaterally picked me before I was even born for reasons that He never reveals and gives me this miracle of faith causing me to believe.

I can't think of a better excuse in the world than I was born unable to believe without a miracle and God withheld that miracle from me.