because the Trinity said so
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Salvation in Two separate and Distinct Steps
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
because the Trinity said so
Calvinism does not say that. You do
until faith is expressed the sinner is under the wrath of God
I referenced specific examples from the old and new testament documenting the lost seek God.
Scripture says people seek God as a refuge, Psalms 14, seek eternal life, Matthew 19:16, some Jews pursued righteousness by works, Romans 9:31, and so forth.
Psalms 14:4-5
Do all the workers of injustice not know,
Who devour my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the LORD?
There they are in great dread,
For God is with a righteous generation.
Here we see some of the workers of injustice, i.e. fallen people, are seen by God as having called upon the Lord, being in great dread.
Mathew 19:16
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do so that I may obtain eternal life?”
Here the rich young ruler is seeking eternal life through works of the Law.
Romans 9:31
however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Here we see that Israel, believing Jews, sought righteousness by works.
Scripture is clear, the lost sometimes seek God and His promised blessings, but many do not find the narrow way that leads to life, which is only found by faith as credited by God.
Van. Psalm 14 says the do NOT call upon the Lord
Matt 19. He was blinded by the world and not calling out for mercy and pity. Look a little further in the text
Romans
their heart was deceived and they were seeking works based salvation
Matt 19. He was blinded by the world and not calling out for mercy and pity. Look a little further in the text
Romans
their heart was deceived and they were seeking works based salvation
I am sorry, but you need to accept that the double negative creates a positive, i.e. do all the workers of injustice "not know" and do not call upon the Lord? The answer is some workers do call!!! "There they are.in great dread."
No one suggested the rich young rules was seeking God by faith, but he was seeking eternal life from God. It is inescapable.
Yes, the Jews were seeking works based salvation, but they were seeking God's salvation.
Thus all three examples clearly show some of the lost sometimes seek God and that the claim none of the lost ever seek God is unbiblical nonsense.
Salvation in two steps... Step one God needs a man to save man!
Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Step two... He sent one!... His name is Jesus Christ!
John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Brother Glen
Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Step two... He sent one!... His name is Jesus Christ!
John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Brother Glen
Salvation in two steps... Step one God needs a man to save man!
Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Step two... He sent one!... His name is Jesus Christ!
John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Brother Glen
Yes, here is the biblical truth:
(1) Christ became the means of salvation when He gave His life as a ransom for all, and [Step One]
We are talking about God's two steps taken to save people not the actions of God and man to create the need for salvation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I can say that as I am not a calvinist but for the calvinist appeasing the wrath of God is irrelevant. Try again but this time from your calvinist theological point of view. You must have something that actually supports your view.
The reality is that under your calvinist theology our desire to seek God or to be saved has zero impact on the outcome.
For the absolutely elect must have been saved without him;
and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.
Do you agree with the above statement? If not why not?
Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
R.C. Sproul
If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith.
It is your theologians that tell us belief has no part in your salvation but strangely that bible says it does. Now which do you think I should believe?
@Marooncat79 you are not even trying to answer from your calvinist perspective.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Nice answer if one is not a calvinist but since you seem to hold to the theological view, not so much.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Marooncat79
you just keep dodging the question. Give me a clear answer to the question.
So I ask again, from the calvinist perspective, why did Christ have to go to the cross? Why is that so hard for you to answer? If your view is biblical you should have clear contextual support for it. Do you?
So you do not think that Ephesians 1:13 is true? What about Romans 10:17? Or Romans 10:13? But since it seems you do not believe those then perhaps you can show me the verse where God says your saved now I will give you faith. After all one of your calvinist theologians said it so he must have a clear verse he based that idea upon.
Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
You have yet to give me a single logical answer from the perspective of your calvinist theology. If you are going to say calvinism is correct don’t you think it would be a good idea if you could support your claim?
People can deny the meaning and message of scripture is they choose, being the instigator of their reward.But you are forgetting one thing... Man is the recipient NEVER the instigator... And you are right, he gave his life a ransom for all... All his Father gave him... Brother Glen
Which comes first, God revelation and invitation according to the gospel of Christ, or people accepting or not fully accepting or rejecting His good news? Thus God is the instigator, not people.
Christ gave His live for all His Father gave or will give to Him, plus for those who will never be given, such as those heading for swift destruction, 2 Peter 2:1.
God was not propitiated toward any person when Christ died, but is propitiated toward those God has put spiritually into Christ. Thus the two steps of Salvation are:
(1) Christ became the means of salvation when He gave His life as a ransom for all, as the Lamb of God and
(2) God chooses believers whose faith He credits as righteousness, and puts them spiritually into Christ.
Thus everyone believing into Him, as accomplished by God alone, will not perish but have everlasting life.
(1) Christ became the means of salvation when He gave His life as a ransom for all, as the Lamb of God and
(2) God chooses believers whose faith He credits as righteousness, and puts them spiritually into Christ.
Thus everyone believing into Him, as accomplished by God alone, will not perish but have everlasting life.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But you are forgetting one thing... Man is the recipient NEVER the instigator... And you are right, he gave his life a ransom for all... All his Father gave him... Brother Glen
So you have a different text that you call the bible. Or do you just skip over that parts of the bible you do not like?
A person's name is written in the Lamb's book of life after they have been made perfect.
A person is made perfect when they are born anew, having undergone the washing of regeneration.
Only people transferred into Christ undergo the washing of regeneration, and arise in Christ a new creation.
(snip)
1) Everyone believing into Him shall not perish. Here our belief exists before we are given to Christ. Note the verse does not say "everyone in Him shall believe, and not perish, but have eternal life.
2) We are saved by grace "through" faith. That means God utilizes faith in some way to accomplish salvation. Not the other way around.
3) Your faith has saved you is biblical, but your faith is provided by your salvation is no where to be found.
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A comment like than doesn't even deserve a response and I have KJV'S older than you are... Brother Glen