Featured Penal Substitution Atonement Theory - Question

You can't even say it without using philosophy! Every intelligible syllable you utter only has meaning BECAUSE of philosophy!

Okay, so let me see if I can get you to see what I'm trying to communicate here...

What you are doing here is implying an argument where your major premise is that "what is written in Scripture is the truth".

Already sounds like philosophy, right? But it goes further because how do you know that "what is written in Scripture is the truth"?

The answer to that question is going to involve things like the existence of God and His relationship to mankind and all sorts of other very philosophical subjects.

This is yet another philosophical argument you're making.

NO! That's you own private definition of what philosophy is. Philosophy is the study of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning.

I am not denying the existence of objective truth but rather the false dichotomy you've erected. Not all philosophy is truth but all truth is philosophical. The very concept of truth (not to mention evidence, argument, proof, belief, love, hate, good, evil, etc) has no meaning or application outside the realm of philosophy.

I don't disagree that it is a form of philosophy but its the wrong word. Deriving a teaching from scripture is the definition of the word "doctrine" and/or "theology" (depending on the context) not "philosophy".

Imagine a traffic cop who told you to "proceed through the intersection when the light changes". Well, which light? You'd rightly ask! You're making a similar error here. All doctrine is philosophy but not all philosophy is doctrine. The two terms are not interchangable in the manner you are interchanging them. One is an application of the other.

Yes, it totally is exactly that!

You can't even begin the process of determining whether a thing is objective or subjective without the use of philosophy! That sentence doesn't even hardly make sense to say because the very act of determining whether something is objective or subjective is itself what philosophy is!

A very philosophical thing to do!

No, I don't!

Do you?

This is just you making an argument. You present premises and use logic to go from those premises to a conclusion (e.g. "That fails the test."). That's philosophy, my friend. I mean that is the very act of philosophy itself! If you use it in relation to nature, its called natural philosophy (a.k.a. science), if you use it in relation to God is called "Theology" (i.e. the logos of the theos) or "doctrine". If you use it to study physical life, we call it biology (i.e. the logic (logos) of life). Etc. It's all philosophy!

The bottom line is simply that you have a false understanding of what the word "philosophy" means.

philosophy /fĭ-lŏs′ə-fē/
noun

1. The study of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning.
2. A system of thought based on or involving such study.
   "the philosophy of Hume."
3. The study of the theoretical underpinnings of a particular field or discipline.

A point with which I agree completely!

 

Nope!

Is God real?
Is God alive?
Is God personal?
Is God relational?
Is God righteous?
Is God Just?
Can God change and if so how?


It's theology proper 101.

Hamartiology is the study of sin.

Do try to stay away from bald claims. Especially ones that have no foundation at all in the discussion and which are just another example of you talking down to me like I'm an idiot.

Blah blah blah.

No it flat out does not do any such thing!

Just what is it that you think vengeance is and why do you suppose that God claims it as His own?

Vengeance is justice and God is the only one who can meet it out properly - to answer my own question.

Which, if is He is just, HE MUST DO!!!

Why?

Because of the definition of the word justice and how simply leaving the wicked to their own devices ignores their victims and is therefore unjust, by definition.

Now, that has been stated, restated and restated again. You can either respond to the argument by addressing directly the definition of the words "Justice" and "Vengeance" or you can be counted, by me at least, to have conceded the point by reason of lack of substantive response.

 

You can't say anything without philosophy. Every intelligible thing that comes out of your mouth has meaning BECAUSE of philosophy!

You could not read the words without philosophy!

Yes! You absolutely do!

Taking it as it comes is both doctrine and philosophy! BY DEFINITION!!

You do not get to make up your own definitions of words, Jon! That's not how sound reason works!

 

You've very clearly stated that He CAN forgo the punishment of the wicked, not that He has or will and my arguments are based squarely on that statement.

Why? If He doesn't have to do so to remain just, then why would He do it?

That's a real question that I expect a genuine answer too. It is not rhetorical.

On the contrary, I am PROVING your doctrine false! You're just trying to wiggle out of having to address it.

As I said from the very beginning of this, God is Just, therefore, you are wrong.

If you think that God can, by any means, forgo the punishment of the wicked then you either don't know that God is just or you don't know what justice is and it is precisely this idea that Christ's death was something other than God the Son offering Himself as a substitution for those who would believe where He took the punishment that we deserve, that has produced this particular heresy (yes, believing the God could even possibly be unjust is heresy). It not only results in a belief that God either is or can be unjust but it a rejection of the very gospel itself.

I just thought of something as I was writing that last sentence. I wonder....

What, in your view, does it mean to die?

When you say that Jesus died, just what is it that you mean by that?

Do you believe that God died on that cross?

 

Do you really not understand the point?

 

The entire thread is still here for the world to read!

It was actual Author King that stated...

"God doesn't have to punish sin. He could just let humanity continually destroy ourselves in our own sinful behavior forever.

Do you not believe that sin is self destructive? Do you you not believe that if God never lifted a finger to punish sin, sin itself would still plunge sinners into destruction and misery?"​

You you have, on more than one occasion told me explicitly that you agree with him. Your exact words were...

"I agree with Arthur. God does not have to do anything."​

Now, this is your one and only chance, Jon! I'm well and truly fed up with it. You will either admit that you agree with Author's statement and admit that you told me as much or I will simply put you on ignore. I do not discuss Christian doctrine with those who either deny the gospel or who have a faulty relationship with the plain and simple truth.

 

And so in one post you claim I'm making a false accusation and in other you make the very claim you said was a false accusation!

This would be funny if it were so insanely innane!

So does everything else that acts. This is a completely meaningless thing to say.

God acts righteously, which includes visiting justice upon the wicked. GOD CANNOT skip over justice and remain just!

To think otherwise is to say that God is arbitrary, which is the exact opposite of just.

I say it again...

God is just, therefore, you are wrong!

And if He were to choose not to do so?

 

I seem to recall something about Satan entering into Judas to betray Jesus?

 

No. God in His sovereignty uses all sorts of means to accomplish His will. Satan was used as a means to accomplish His will for Job.

 

No! I read it and take it to be consistent with your stated belief that God COULD forgo the punishment of the wicked.

I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED that anyone said that God DOESN'T or WON'T but that He COULD!!!!!!!!!!

Now deny that you just said what I put into great big letters so that even you, the guy who wrote the post, can see and read for himself!

My every argument has been address to that precise sentiment.

GOD IS JUST! Therefore, you are wrong!

 

I am grasping that you cannot admit the truth.

Good bye!