1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Who Wrote Book of Hebrews

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Oct 14, 2023.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, it is not important to me.

    We can't assume Peter was speaking of Hebrews (remember your words that Paul concluded Scripture.....which would place Hebrews after Peter's words :Wink ).
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Kinda. Pauline authorship is not oral tradition in the sense it was believed by the early church and passed down. It became oral tradition with the Catholic Church (relying on Augustine).

    The more common believe in the early church is it was written by Clement. Why? Dunno.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe that is what Timothy being set at liberty means. The last part is too much to of a guess.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wonder, wonder who, who-oo-ooh, who
    Who wrote the book of .... Hebrews. :Biggrin
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hmm. Acts of the Apostles 13:33 with Hebrews 1:5. Citing Psalms 2:7. And Romans 1:4, ". . . And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: . . ." As taught, unique to Paul. Was the first to use "firstborn" to refer to Christ's bodily resurrection. Romans 8:29, used in Hebrews 1:6, ". . . again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, . . ."
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, the written tradition that came down in our English Bibles was Paul to the Hebrews.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I disagree that the 66 books of the Bible all started as oral tradition. There is no proof for such an assertion. Indeed, there is proof for the opposite. For example, remember the scroll of Jeremiah that was written, destroyed by the king, then rewritten.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wow, that takes me back to the teen years! :Coffee
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm talking about Pauline theology as a whole (Hebrews does not fit well with his epistles, not only the language).

    I do believe that whoever wrote Hebrews learned from Paul and the other disciples.


    For example, you have made posts that could go along with what Paul said. But you are not Paul.

    We get into the error of somebody said such and such, and it says such and such here, so that somebody must have written it.

    Paul instructed Christians. It would be so much more to God's glory that another wrote Hebrews, that the Apostles teachings took root in the church, than to suppose Paul wrote everything not directly attributed to another.

    I suspect this may be a reason God chose not to reveal the writer of Hebrews.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not really:

    15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: Acts 9

    The desired effect was for the epistle to be more widely accepted among the Jews if it were anonymous as opposed to announcing Pauline authorship. Paul's 'apostolic authority' was not important to him when dealing with his "kinsmen according to the flesh". Romans 9:3

    Not sure I follow you here. Paul is persuading Jewish Christians to hold fast to Christ and not return back to the apostate Judaism they come out of.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All the books of the Bible began as being known as the word of God to believers who received them. The oral tradition did come into existance. We have the handed down written tradition of all those 66 books being accepted by believers as the written word of God to this day. We have the texts from the autographs.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, it did. But that was because of the Roman Catholic Church (the KJV being a Church of England translation).

    I am not opposed to tradition. I'm only saying that we should not insist on tradition. When we speak of "oral tradition" we are typically talking about how Scripture was initially communicated or passed down rather than tradition.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ...not my words at all; Paul COMPLETED the word of God in the same sense that a husband would say of his wife, "She completes me", i.e., God used him to show behind the veil of Moses.

    I'm done.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree....insofar as communicating God's Word (evangelism) to that audience.


    My main point is we do not know who wrote Hebrews because Scripture does not tell us who wrote Hebrews.

    It is fun to talk about our opinions, but it is not actually edifying. In the end it is just opinion.

    What matters is that God wrote Hebrews.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The use of Psalms 2:7 and the term "firstborn" to refer to Christ's resurrection is first to be unique to Paul's teachings.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From: Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews - Wikipedia,
    "Ancient views
    The Epistle to the Hebrews was included in the collected writings of Paul from a very early date. For example, the late second-century or early third-century codex 46, a volume of Paul's general epistles, includes Hebrews immediately after Romans.[3]

    While the assumption of Pauline authorship readily allowed its acceptance in the Eastern Church, doubts persisted in the West.[4]

    Eusebius does not list Epistle to the Hebrews among the antilegomena or disputed books (though he included the unrelated Gospel of the Hebrews).[5] He does record, however, that "some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews, saying that it is disputed by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul."[6] In response, he endorses the view of Clement of Alexandria: that the epistle was written by Paul in Hebrew (unsigned through modesty), and "translated carefully" into Greek by Luke,[7] a thing demonstrated by its stylistic similarity with Luke's Acts.

    Doubts about Pauline authorship were raised around the end of the second century, predominantly in the West. Tertullian attributed the epistle to Barnabas.[8] Both Gaius of Rome[9] and Hippolytus[10] excluded Hebrews from the works of Paul, the latter attributing it to Clement of Rome.[11] Origen noted that others had claimed Clement or Luke as the writer, but he tentatively accepted Pauline origin of the thought in the text and the explanation of Clement of Alexandria, saying that "the thoughts are those of the apostle, but the diction and phraseology are those of some one who remembered the apostolic teachings, and wrote down at his leisure what had been said by his teacher", as quoted by Eusebius.[12]

    Jerome, aware of such lingering doubts,[13] included the epistle in his Vulgate but moved it to the end of Paul's writings. Augustine affirmed Paul's authorship and vigorously defended the epistle. By then its acceptance in the New Testament canon was well settled."
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If it is Christian teaching then it is probably not unique to Paul.

    The writer of Hebrews was discussing the superiority of Christ, which includes that Christ is the "Firstborn".

    I have taught of Christ as the Firstborn and how this relates to the Resurrection. I am not Paul.


    What you are proving is not that Paul wrote Hebrews but that God is it's ultimate writer and that the writer of Hebrews may have been influenced by Paul. I agree with what your statement actually proves.


    But I disagree with your argument.

    By your argument Matthew must have been written by Mark because they have so much in common.

    Others view Matthew as based on Mark because they have so much in common.

    BUT suppose that God is ultimately the Author of all Scripture. Then Matthew and Mark could be very similar with the connection being God rather than a common source or writer.


    Same with Hebrews. The writer could have been easily a Christian who listened to Paul or read Paul's letters, applying part of that to the Jews.

    We simply cannot know. If we depend on history and tradition then we pick somebody other than Paul. If we depend on Augustine and Catholic tradition we pick Paul.

    BUT if we depend on the Bible, we have to be content with not knowing because Scripture simply does not name the writer.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are teachings found in Hebrews unique to Hebrews.
    In what Scripture?
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In Hebrews.

    (My point is that Luke said what he learned, just because Hebrews uses some words that Paul used does not mean Paul wrote Hebrews).
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [ A side issue. A part from each book of the Bible being in the Bible. Do all 66 books get cited in another Bible book? ]
    All 66 books being in the Bible is, in of itself, a written tradition. And in so being a written tradition, is effectively an oral tradition. The 66 books are not so specified in the holy scripture book by book to be holy scripture. We believe all 66 books to be holy scripture.
     
    #99 37818, Nov 28, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2023
  21. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,465
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If Paul did not author Hebrews, what books of Paul was not written before Hebrews?
     
Loading...