Concerning Romans 9:16

[Revmitchell]

In that sense, my statement someone making themselves “elect” by demonstrating belief is a “works based” salvation is inaccurate.



peace to you

So who believes that they make themselves elect?

 

[JonC]

The focus of Romans 9:16 (all of chapter 9, really) is how someone becomes “elect”. It does not depend on the will or their works, but on God who decides to have mercy and compassion upon whom He choses.

I agree that the passage deals with election, but the crux of that issue is who are we to question (it is not the right of the clay to question the Potter). And that is not the actual focus of the passage.

The focus of the passage is God being faithful even though not all of the descendents of Israel are Israel and the extention of the promise beyond the descendents of Jacob. The focus is divine justice.

What makes you believe the focus of the passage is election?

 

[SavedByGrace]

What makes you believe the focus of the passage is election?

because of his "theology"!

 

[Silverhair]

Can you explain how a Wretched hell bound sinner can by themselves seek God for salvation

The same way that all the rest of us wretched hell bound sinners did and still do. We respond to the various promptings that God has provided. You know creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit or even hearing the gospel message. For some strange reason people seem to forget that God actually reached out to people prior to Christ going to the cross and still has that ability.

Yes I know you are not a calvinist but this does make me wonder about the logic behind some of the thinks they say.
I do find it really odd that any calvinist would question how God saves a person. Do they think Irresistible Grace only works after a person hears the gospel? Would that not make election conditional on hearing the gospel? But I thought they believed in Unconditional Election?

 

[canadyjd]

So who believes that they make themselves elect?

Brother, I acknowledged my statement was inaccurate and told you that I stand corrected.

I’m not sure what else you want from me.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Thanks for responding. You are certainly correct that “works”, in NT scripture, is referring works of the OT Law leading to a right relationship with God.

In that sense, my statement someone making themselves “elect” by demonstrating belief is a “works based” salvation is inaccurate.

I stand corrected.

The focus of Romans 9:16 (all of chapter 9, really) is how someone becomes “elect”. It does not depend on the will or their works, but on God who decides to have mercy and compassion upon whom He choses.

The doctrine that faith comes prior to election is contrary to this passage.

peace to you

So the question is who does God choose to have mercy and compassion upon. Is it an arbitrary choice or is there something that would influence His decision?

Romans 9 is about how someone would become one of the elect. Paul did lay out how some were chosen for service, Pharaoh and how He chose one family line over another Jacob over Esau. So in that since they were elected by God. But how does an individual become one of the elect, one of those chosen for salvation?

Rom 9:16 is clear that man can not save himself, by his will, nor can he do enough good works, how he runs, so how does he become one of the elect of God?

Paul provides the answer to this question. Romans 9:30-33 shows us that it through faith. While the Jews pursued salvation through works/the law and failed the Gentiles pursed salvation through faith and became one of the elect

So we see that faith does indeed come before election.

 

[canadyjd]

Romans 9:30-33 has moved from the question of election to attaining salvation (a right relationship with God)

Attaining a right relationship with God comes from faith in Jesus Christ, not works of the OT Law.

Election, however, comes prior to faith and is according to God’s will and purpose.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Romans 9:30-33 has moved from the question of election to attaining salvation (a right relationship with God)

Attaining a right relationship with God comes from faith in Jesus Christ, not works of the OT Law.

Election, however, comes prior to faith and is according to God’s will and purpose.

peace to you

No sinner can ever be "elect" unless they repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, first.

There is no election to salvation based on faith without repentance. This is a false teaching

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:30-33 has moved from the question of election to attaining salvation (a right relationship with God)

Attaining a right relationship with God comes from faith in Jesus Christ, not works of the OT Law.

Election, however, comes prior to faith and is according to God’s will and purpose.

peace to you

So are you saying God is just arbitrary in this election of yours or does He have a reason behind what He does?

I call it your election as it is not in the text.

 

[canadyjd]

Election is prior to faith. The text is very clear in Romans 9.

Election is an act of God according to His will and purpose apart from anything the person does.

That is why it is called grace (unmerited favor)

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Election is prior to faith. The text is very clear in Romans 9.

Election is an act of God according to His will and purpose apart from anything the person does.

That is why it is called grace (unmerited favor)

peace to you

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Faith comes before grace. So faith before election. The text is clear in Ephesians.

What we see in Romans is that faith comes before election. Rom 9:30-33
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith Rom 9:30

You have not provided any clear text in Romans nine.to support your claim of election prior to faith. We see election to service of Jacob and Pharaoh but not to faith.

 

[canadyjd]

The word grace means unmerited favor. Depending upon the context, it could mean salvific grace or enabling grace (empowered by God Holy Spirit to accomplish a task or endure persecution) or it could refer to the unmerited favor of God in election.

Faith comes before salvation. Election comes before faith.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

The word grace means unmerited favor. Depending upon the context, it could mean salvific grace or enabling grace (empowered by God Holy Spirit to accomplish a task or endure persecution) or it could refer to the unmerited favor of God in election.

Faith comes before salvation. Election comes before faith.

peace to you

You keep saying the same thing over and over and yet you never give any verse that provide clear support for your view that one is elect prior to faith.

But since calvinists do have the habit of changing the meaning of words why don't you tells what "election" means to you in your comment "Election comes before faith"

 

[canadyjd]

I have explained in detail what I believe about election and have focused on Romans 9 to support my beliefs.

I could repeat myself, but some are complaining I repeat myself over and over and in the next breath claim I haven’t supported my beliefs with scripture.

Obviously, some folks aren’t here to discuss the posts but rather regurgitate anti-doctrines of grace rhetoric.

peace to you

 

[percho]

I want to focus on Romans 9:16 and the doctrine of “First Cause” concerning election.

Reconciling other passages will distract from addressing Roman 9:16.

There is nothing in 1 John 5: 9-13 that addresses election.

peace to you

I believe this is the key to your statement of which I clicked, "winner".

1Jo 5:6

¶
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

It is also the key to 1 John 5:9-

With the Spirit of Truth which God gives, one doesn't have any witness. That is the, "First Cause," IMHO.

 

[percho]

God elects, God gives and the result is; And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Actually all of Rom 8.

 

[Silverhair]

I have explained in detail what I believe about election and have focused on Romans 9 to support my beliefs.

I could repeat myself, but some are complaining I repeat myself over and over and in the next breath claim I haven’t supported my beliefs with scripture.

Obviously, some folks aren’t here to discuss the posts but rather regurgitate anti-doctrines of grace rhetoric.

peace to you

So you cannot support your view with scripture. Got it.

One thing I have noticed abut the average calvinist we see on this board. When you ask them to support their view with clear scripture they usually duck for cover. They repeat what they have already said as if that somehow supports them or they throw out some unrelated verse.

Trying to get a clear answer from a calvinist is like trying to nail jello to a wall. And then they wonder why we do not believe what they say.

 

[canadyjd]

I have repeated focused in Romans 9 to support my beliefs.

Let’s attempt to focus on the passages instead of personal attacks.

If you can’t focus on the passages, I would appreciate it if you would go away so that those who desire genuine dialog can do so.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

Romans 9 is about God's sovereign choice to include the Gentiles in and to exclude non believing Jews. Romans 9 cannot be divorced from the rest of the book just because we have placed chapter divisions. The context of Romans 9 needs to be understood by the context of the entire book.

 

[Van]

actually, instead of the reading, "ap' archēs" (from the beginning); there is an equally old and well attested reading, "aparchēn" (First-Fruits - earliest converts). note the slight difference between the two.

in fact, Paul uses this latter phrase a few times, 1Co_15:20, 1Co_15:23; 1Co_16:15; Rom_8:23; Rom_11:16; Rom_16:5

1Co 15:20
But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.​

Thus using the first fruits variant in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chose you as first fruits for salvation. Thus to be a "first fruit" is to be among those made alive, just as Jesus was raised from the dead. Obviously a person must be chosen as a first fruit for salvation, otherwise they would not be a first fruit.

In 1 Corinthians 15:23 we see the order of the resurrection to life, first Christ who has already been resurrected bodily, then second those who have fallen asleep in Christ, the born anew who have physically died, then the born anew still physically living when Christ comes in the air. Of course, the second and third groups were chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

In 1 Corinthians 16:15 we see that those born anew while living in the region called Achaia are some of the "first fruits" or the fruits of the "First" (and the Last) Christ Jesus.

In Romans 8:23, those born anew and indwelt as a pledge to our future physical resurrection, look forward whether or not we will be part of group 2 (asleep in Christ) or group 3 (physically living in Christ).

In Romans 11:16, we see that everyone born anew, whether among the first or everyone chosen later, has been rendered holy by the washing of regeneration.

In Romans 16:5, we see that someone was the first fruits into Christ from Asia.

None of these usages alter the fact, people are chosen for salvation by being set apart in Christ based on God crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness.