Problem of there being an actual crucifixion date.

[37818]

Julian date April 7, 30 A.D. Friday Nisan 16 for the 14th.
Julian date April 3, 33 A.D. Friday Nisan 14.
Julian date April 5, 30 A.D. Wedensday Nisan 14.
Julian date April 6, 30 A.D. Thursday Nisan 15.

There are also other proposed dates.
The problem, all these dates and others are being denied by professing Christians.

At issue, if there can be no actual Biblically possible crucifixion date, there can be no resurrection.

Personally, I am persuaded Julian date April 6, 30 A.D. Nisan 15th is the actual knowable Biblical crucifixion date. Reference Mark 14:12 being the 14th of Nisan in 30 A.D..

 

[37818]

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

 

[JonC]

I do not understand the need to know an exact date.

I believe that God created the world. But I do not know the exact date.

I believe that the Word was made flesh, but I do not know the exact date.

I was saved as a young man, but I do not know the exact date.


Part of the problem we have in determining an exact date is that this was determined in different ways throughout history. In Exodus it was by observing the sun and moon. In the 1st century it was by observation and rekoning as determined by the Sanhedrin. Now it is lunisolar.

Then we get into the fact that the determining day woukd be dependent on 1st century practice in Jerusalm rather than OT passages (and the timing was debated even in the first century, the Jews yielding to Jewish laws).


So it is impossible to know as a fact (we can only have opinions).

We can only know that Jesus died on the afternoon before a Sabbath and that Sabbath was a high day and this was the day after the pasdover was killed..

The two most agreed upon days are Wendsday and Friday.


Opinions are not bad, however becoming dogmatic about those opinions exceed Scripture.

 

[37818]

I disagree that a percise date is evidence of the resurrection.


The question goes to "what Jewish calendar?"

The Biblical calendar of Exodus?
The calendar used in the 1st Century?
The Sanhedrin authority?
The present Jewish calendar?

Then how are we measuring "days and nights"?

The Jewish rule where a partial counts a whole (like Ester's 3 day and 3 night fast which was 2 days)?

Then what are we calling the start of the day?

Then what are we calling the evening (and between the evenings)?

And ultimately, what was the writers using - the Law or the 1st Century Jewish practice?

I think we can at least know that Jesus' tomb was found empty on Sunday.

I do not need for Jesus to have been in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights by a Western counting to believe God raised Him from the dead.

This whole arguement is a denial based on calandars which cannot be provided. Arguement of denial and silence of calandars not providable.

We have Biblical evidence.
Exodus 12:18, the 8 days 14 through 21.
7 days of unleavened bread 14 through 20.
We also known the 7 days of the feast to be 15 through 21.
Leviticus 23:5-8 and Numbers 28:16-25.
And that only 6 of the 7 days of unleavened bread occur during the feast per Exodus 12:18 and Deuteronomy 16:8.
We also know there 7 mornings preparation to offer a lamb each of the 7 days, and one sin offerring, Numbers 28.

And from the above and from Mark 14:12 to be the 14th of Nisan and it to be the day before the crucifixion. Mark 14:12-72 through Mark 15:1-41.

 

[37818]

So it is impossible to know as a fact (we can only have opinions).

A false view.

Because.


Existence exists. 1 + 1 = 2. The God question, is mere opinion. God needs existence in the question.

How we know anything is mere opinion.

It is in evidence what becomes fully dead does not come back to life.

 

[JonC]

This whole arguement is a denial based on calandars which cannot be provided. Arguement of deial and silence of calandars not providable.

We have Biblical evidence.
Exodus 12:18, the 8 days 14 through 21.
7 days of unleavened bread 14 through 20.
We also known the 7 days of the feast to be 15 through 21.
Leviticus 23:5-8 and Numbers 28:16-25.
And that only 6 of the 7 days of unleavened bread occur during the feast per Exodus 12:18 and Deuteronomy 16:8.
We also know there 7 mornings preparation to offer a lamb each of the 7 days, and one sin offerring, Numbers 28.

And from the above and from Mark 14:12 to be the 14th of Nisan and it to be the day before the crucifixion. Mark 14:12-72 through Mark 15:1-41.

We do not know the exact date. We DO know they did not use the Biblical calendar of Exodus but instead used "observation and rekoning".

We do know what they would have used if they had computers. So the exact date is opinion rather than fact. That is why biblical scholars are divided between Nisan 14 on a Wed and on a Fri.

We do not know the Jewish law that may have affected how we would interpret the OT instructions.

We do know that they added a Seder meal for those traveling or not in Jerusalem. This is not in the OT.

To know the date we have to know:
1. The "observation- rekoning"
2. Their day observance
3. The 1st century Jewish laws

What can we know?

Jesus are the Supper the evening after the Passover was killed, Jesus died the next afternoon, the day of the crucifixtion was a preperation day, the next day being a Sabbath which was also a high day.

 

[JonC]

A false view.

Because.


Existence exists. 1 + 1 = 2. The God question, is mere opinion. God needs existence in the question.

How we know anything is mere opinion.

It is in evidence what becomes fully dead does not come back to life.

I disagree.

I know a stove is burns because I feel the heat (and have had the experience of touching a burner). That is experience, not opinion.

I know Christ is my Savior because of experience, not opinion.

My point is that we cannot know the exact date because Scripture doesn't give it.


Your opinion is based on the idea that the 1st century Jewish calendar corresponds with the program you used to track lunar cycles, that the Jews adhered to the Law and did not make additional laws that would affect their ceremonies, that they strictly adhered to sunset dating, etc.


I'm not saying you are wrong to have opinions. I am saying you shouldn't insist others adhere to those opinions.

 

[37818]

To know the date we have to know:
1. The "observation- rekoning"
2. Their day observance
3. The 1st century Jewish laws

So we do not know the the 8 numbered days to be 14 through 21? We do not know Mark 14:12 to be identified as the 14th? And we cannot know the day following 14 is 15?

What can we know?

Jesus are the Supper the evening after the Passover was killed, Jesus died the next afternoon, the day of the crucifixtion was a preperation day, the next day being a Sabbath which was also a high day.

The 15th follows the 14th. The 14th, What day of the week? If our Friday, then the next day would be the 15th, and also the 7th day sabbath too. Mark 14:17.

The Jewish day dates begin with their sunset.

Now the 7th day Sabbath Preparation day begins with our Thursday sunset. And ends with the Sabbath with our Friday sunset.
Mark 15:42-43.

The Jewish day dates begin with their sunset.

Mark 14:17.
Mark 15:42.

 

[Deacon]

A false view.

Because.

Existence exists. 1 + 1 = 2. The God question, is mere opinion. God needs existence in the question.

How we know anything is mere opinion.

It is in evidence what becomes fully dead does not come back to life.

I’m unsure exactly what you are saying but the option that JonC presents is not represented as:

1 + 1 = 2​

It is true that we know the answer, which is that ‘Jesus was crucified and rose again

We do not necessarily have all the information we desire regarding ‘how’ and ‘when’ Jesus was crucified and rose.

So the equation would properly look like this:

X + Y = 2​

Where “2” represents the known result.

Rob

 

[37818]

We do not know the exact date.

Without knowing the year we do know the Jewish month and day date for Mark 14:12 according to the word of God.

 

[JonC]

So we do not know the the 8 numbered days to be 14 through 21? We do not know Mark 14:12 to be identified as the 14th? And we cannot know the day following 14 is 15?

The 15th follows the 14th. The 14th, What day of the week? If our Friday, then the next day would be the 15th, and also the 7th day sabbath too. Mark 14:17.

The Jewish day dates begin with their sunset.

Now the 7th day Sabbath Preparation day begins with our Thursday sunset. And ends with the Sabbath with our Friday sunset.
Mark 15:42-43.

The Jewish day dates begin with their sunset.

Mark 14:17.
Mark 15:42.

The problem comes in with 1st century Jewish traditions.

If we were to stick with the OT we'd never know of the two Seder meals. We wouldn't know the exact timing, etc.

We can know that Jesus was crucified the afternoon that followed the night of the last supper.

We can know that Jesus ate the last supper around sunset after the passover was killed.

We can know that the passover was killed between 1 and 3 pm depending on the day of the week.

We can know that Jesus was buried before the sunset that started tge Sabbath.

We can know that Sabbath was also a high day.


But people put that together differently.

 

[37818]

Rob

What Jewish calendar date would you conclude for Mark 14:12-16?

 

[37818]

The problem comes in with 1st century Jewish traditions.

So how would it cause the word of God regarding Mark 14:12 not mean what it should mean?

 

[JonC]

I’m unsure exactly what you are saying but the option that JonC presents is not represented as:

1 + 1 = 2​

It is true that we know the answer, which is that ‘Jesus was crucified and rose again

We do not necessarily have all the information we desire regarding ‘how’ and ‘when’ Jesus was crucified and rose.

So the equation would properly look like this:

X + Y = 2​

Where “2” represents the known result.

Rob

Yes.

This is exactly what I am saying.

We are given the conclusion, and may speculate on other things.....but it is the conclusion and not the speculation that is important.

 

[JonC]

So how would it cause the word of God regarding Mark 14:12 not mean what it should mean?

I believe Marl 14:12 means exactly what it says - exactly what it should mean.

You suggest it should mean what you think it meant during the Exodus.
BUT I think Mark was writing to an audience about the Disciples experienced (about what they saw) and therefore meant exactly what occurred in the 1st century as practiced in the 1st century.

I am saying that Mark is not giving the info you want of him.

Many Christians fall into that trap (wanting to know more than is given and drawing conclusions to develop their answers).

It isn't necessary a bad thing. By all means, work out to your satisfaction whatever you feel you need to work out.

But don't lean on your own understanding. You simply don't know. Certainly don't become dogmatic about your opinions.


As for the question you asked @Deacon , prior to the 1st century the Jews changed from the Biblical calendar of Exodus to "observation and rekoning", with the Sanhedrin being the determining factor. This occurred after the Bablyonian exile (partially as a result). One issue is that the dates would be different for a period depending on where you were located (the Jews were not in one place either....unlike during the OT).

 

[JonC]

At issue, if there can be no actual Biblically possible crucifixion date, there can be no resurrection.

Here is the problem.

Nobody is claiming that there was not a date on which Christ was crucified.

Most Biblical scholars agree it had to be Friday, butca few do hold to a Wed. I am unaware of any Biblical scholar holding it was a Thursday but I don't doubt some people do.

What is not known is the actual date.

There is a lot of speculation, but not knowing the date has no bearing on whether the event occurred.


Think of it this way - if the Bible only said Christ died and was raised on the 3rd day woukd you disbelieve it because no date was provided?

No date is provided, only observations of what occurred as it occurred in the 1st century.

The only hint we get is that Jesus was baptized in Tiberius' 15th year (Tiberius ruled from 14 AD to 37 AD), so Jesus would have been baptized in 29 AD. Some argue for a co-regency to make the crucifixion ifixion earlier but history does not support this idea.

So you could have people saying the only possible date is in 30 AD to keep a calendar and another saying it has to be later because that'd limit Jesus' ministry to one year.

In the end we don't know the date.

 

[37818]

A false view.

Because.


Existence exists. 1 + 1 = 2. The God question, is mere opinion. God needs existence in the question.

How we know anything is mere opinion.

It is in evidence what becomes fully dead does not come back to life.

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

 

[37818]

do not understand the need to know an exact date.

Because the inerrant written word of God requires it.

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover,

The Biblical Jewish calendar requires it's day dates to over the years to aline with the phases of Moon to the Sun. And to actual historical dates. Herod, Caesar Augustus, Cyrenius, Tiberius Caesar, and Pontius Pilate.

 

[Alan Gross]

Now the 7th day Sabbath Preparation day begins with our Thursday sunset.
And ends with the Sabbath with our Friday sunset.

Correct.

Then, with that said,
you may have just taken a Wrong Turn at the Sabbath High Day.

And the Sabbath High Day has its own Preparation day, the day before it.

...

Aside from that, it sure looks like you are in love with Mark 14:12.

It must have some special meaning to you.

Reference Mark 14:12

from the above and from Mark 14:12

We do not know Mark 14:12 to be identified as the 14th?

we do know the Jewish month and day date for Mark 14:12

What Jewish calendar date would you conclude for Mark 14:12-16?

So how would it cause the word of God regarding Mark 14:12
not mean what it should mean?

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread,
when they killed the passover,

 

[Silverhair]

Julian date April 7, 30 A.D. Friday Nisan 16 for the 14th.
Julian date April 3, 33 A.D. Friday Nisan 14.
Julian date April 5, 30 A.D. Wedensday Nisan 14.
Julian date April 6, 30 A.D. Thursday Nisan 15.

There are also other proposed dates.
The problem, all these dates and others are being denied by professing Christians.

At issue, if there can be no actual Biblically possible crucifixion date, there can be no resurrection.

Personally, I am persuaded Julian date April 6, 30 A.D. Nisan 15th is the actual knowable Biblical crucifixion date. Reference Mark 14:12 being the 14th of Nisan in 30 A.D..

What do we need to know and trust in order to be saved

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

I have never heard a preacher say that we know Christ was crucified on day X so we know we can be saved. The day He was crucified is not important, the fact He was raised from the grave is.