Featured Rewriting the Tulip

Strange how many that post on this board say they are not a calvinist and yet hold to many of the doctrines of calvinism. Call yourself what you want but your views reflect calvinism.

I am not a arrogant as you seem to be. I would not tell God who He can save or why He can save them. God has provided various means for man to know Him and He will be the judge of ones salvation not you or I.

John 7

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You have such an ability to miss the obvious. "He who believes in Me" I understand you struggle with this but He just stated it clearly "He who believes in Me" That is the condition for the whole world, Jews or Gentiles, then or now.

 

So show me how it is warped. There's quite a bit in the post you quote with this response, but you have dealt with none of it. Further, you keep ascribing to me views that, not only do I not embrace, but have spoken against.

How can you be expected to interpret the Word of God properly if you cannot even follow a simple discussion?

Please address the points. You have already made your opinion of me clear.

How?

That's what Christian Doctrinal Discussion is all about.

Have you noticed that the points you have raised have all been directly addressed? You should give it a try.

At least one of them.

Uh-huh ...

I see that's where you get it.

It's a no-brainer.

Again, how do they believe? How do they repent? How do they have faith?

According to you, it by inherent ability. Not once, that I can recall, have you given God the glory for being the One that draws men, teaches them, guides them into all truth, etc.

Why is that? I can tell you why, your heart is so eat up with enmity towards Calvinists that you have no interest in anything but proving them wrong. That's a problem.

Could you quote me as saying this?

It is seriously bad form to put words into your antagonist's mouth. Most of us call this lying.

Not sure how you can say this, seeing it is I that takes the position that men are not saved by faith, but that faith is the result of the enlightenment of Sovereign God.

But it's okay, I'm used to those who cannot debate the points getting upset and responding with insults that are in fact in direct contradiction to what is actually found in my posts.


God bless.

 

Without addressing anything I've actually said? Not going to happen.

Just answer the question.

Do you see what you've done here? Have you not figured out yet that I am saying the truths aren't known (to the natural man)?

Same thing here: I have consistently been making the point that it is God Who not only gives these truths to natural man, but gives natural man the ability to understand them.

And you act as though I view it as of no consequence? Can you honestly say you are making any sense of the discussion?

Consider everyone who died prior to the revelation of the Mystery of Christ: they did not receive understanding of the Gospel, but, God had given them enough revelation that He could judge them based on their obedience to the will He revealed to them.

The thing to recognize is that it was God Who revealed it to them.

Nothing in my post is even relevant to this.

You mean like "Give God the glory?" Instead of yourself?


Continued...

 

17 For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 2

"Most people", "Mob Rules", "the many", known commonly as 'orthodoxy', and many conformists there are that 'hang their hats' on it.

 

Let's start with this:

What you have expressed, in both denying the doctrinal view you oppose, as well as in explicit statement, shows you believe you are saved by faith.

Here is what you are denying:

1) ... humans are inherently sinful,

The alternate view: mankind is not inherently sinful.

2) ... God chooses who will be saved without considering any merit or action on their part,

The alternate view: that considers merit and/or action when He saves someone.

3) ... man, contrary to scripture, does nothing in regard to his salvation.

The alternate view: man does something in regard to his salvation.

And what have you been advocating? That the "something" is that he has faith. He believes. You credit man in his natural state with accomplishing faith and belief.

Aw shucks ...

Dern ...

Golly ...

You've yet to identify the first error. Please point one out.

Speaking of catching something, how exactly is one already condemned if he fails to believe?

Because man is born into a condition of separation from God that can only be remedied by Christ. Will you at this time recognize man's natural condition?

If you say so.

Gee willikers.

Yes, I view it to be logic as well. Thanks!

?

And how shall you know?

I agree. When we trust in our faith, belief, or repentance, we trust in works which we have done. No way around that.

Again, it's a no-brainer conclusion: the reference specifies those believing in the One True God and His truth. It doesn't negate other teachings that make it clear that 1) natural man cannot receive the truth (which precludes an interpretation that only those who reject the truth are in view), 2) that God first delivers the truth to the natural man, then 3) enlightens the natural man that he might understand so that 4) he can receive or reject the truth.

When it is used in a salvific context and specifically stated that it is the natural man accomplishing this, then yes, it is most certainly a work.

Faith is a result, not of works, else Paul would have said "...and that salvation is reliant on whether a man has faith or not." It is pretty obvious "... not of yourselves" and not of works makes God's grace the singular means of salvation.

In regards to arrogance, we are truly arrogant when we credit ourselves for coming to a right conclusion concerning Christ.

Ephesians 1:17-18
King James Version

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I am trusting in the clear teachings that my faith was impossible until Christ opened my eyes to truth.

Faith is a result of that enlightenment,and apart from it I would be as blind as I was before being saved. I might be able to understand salvation from an intellectual perspective, but it wouldn't be an experiential knowledge. It goes beyond knowing facts, it is a matter of knowing something that incontrovertible.


God bless.

 

Most people will not accept the errant views that hod to the TULIP/DoG. So not "Mob rule" just wise enough to not fall for a man-made theology that has it's roots in pagan philosophy.

 

How many times do you have to be told it is not faith that saves us but God saves us because we believe. The fact you continue to misstate the obvious biblical truth shows it not truth you seek but rather acceptance of your errant view.

I have dealt with a number of people that claim to trust the word of God when the reality is that they trust in an errant philosophy.

Pointing out the errors in your posts is not an insult but rather a means of education for you. You can either believe the bible or not that is your option.

You need to spend more time in serious bible study trusting God's word rather than your odd non-biblical theology. I would suggest that you look into the roots of your theology but I doubt that would ever happen as you do not want to know where it came from so you can continue on in your self delusion.

 

I actually quoted these in address of the comment, "Care to show me where I have said my faith saves me?" I have corrected the puncuation, so the question mark is not found in the original quote. They did not load until I pulled up this post, but I thought it good to present them anyway. It gives insight to the fact that despite saying God is sovereign, at the root of your faith is faith itself.

And keep in mind while reading, these comments were given in a context of rejecting what is said:

Again, the merit and/or action is a condition of salvation. That is what this says.

Man does something to be saved. That is what this says. And it defies Paul's teaching that it is not of ourselves.

The problem is, I didn't say that, but have specifically said I believe God gives every man and woman opportunity. Does what your antagonist believes really mean so little to you that you feel you have license to unjustly and dishonestly represent their positions in a public forum?

"We are saved, not by God's grace, but because of our faith/trust in Him."

In the future, you might want to throw in that little issue of "... through faith." This way, those unlearned in salvation will not notice the blatant error of your teaching. This implies our faith and/or belief allows God to save us through grace.

That is why I said, "We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace."

You are trying to say two things at once. Men have to believe/have faith but this isn't a work.

For my view, this is true. But not for yours, because you continue to deny that it is God, and His grace by which men can repent, believe, and have faith.

You continue to teach that natural men have this ability within them, denying the teachings of Christ and Paul, and a few of the Prophets as well.

This is a starting point: understanding that the Comforter reveals truth to natural men so they can believe is not the same as man being made puppets. When that truth is revealed to them, and their understanding is opened, as I said, it isn't something anyone can reject. It's like trying to deny the sun produces sunlight. The ability the natural man did not and does not have, that is, to understand spiritual truth, has been given to the one coming under conviction by the truth God is revealing.

The Gospel, now and forever—stands at the top of the list in regards to spiritual truth. He gives us an entire Old Testament testifying that the saving truth of the Messiah is coming, and the majority of the New in explaining to us that is has come, and what it means.

Again, I believe all men and women will come under conviction, and it is at this time that the natural man either actively rejects the Gospel (which is fully within his inherent ability) or receives the Gospel (which is a condition that has been made possible, not because of what the man has done, but because of what God is doing.

Again—how can they do that?

John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Who makes it possible to believe? He does. It wasn't something within your ability as an unbeliever. You were predisposed to unbelief.

Here is an example of why it is foolish to impose faith and belief as "conditions (to be met in order to be saved):"

John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Look at it carefully. We have your "condition" of believing.

Or do we?

One will do the works He did if they believe? Can I point out that this is prophetic in nature, because obviously no one is believing? Christ is teaching about the Age to come, and it is another no-brainer, "Those who believe will ..."

No different in any verse you find your condition in.

And before that, they have the ability to understand that truth.

Natural man does not.

Again ...

1 Corinthians 2:11-14
King James Version

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


That anyone would deny this passage is always amazing to me. It cannot be construed in any way to make the natural capable of receiving or knowing the spiritual things of God.

Paul credits God for the knowledge he has received, and takes this back to the natural condition. It is incontrovertible Bible Truth.

Again, we see a mixture of what I have said with what I haven't. We also see you trying to say two things at once.

Where do you stand? Dos He open all hearts, or just some? Your very statement denies that God opens all hearts to understanding the truth He reveals to them. The truth, I will add, by which He will also judge them. They won't go into eternal separation because they never had an opportunity. They will go into eternal separation because, after knowing the truth, they turned from the truth.

God is Just. Arguments that presume to place blame on Him for the eternal damnation unbelievers will face show a lack of understanding of God's righteousness.It's the, "If God is good, why does He let bad things happen?" routine.

Continued...

 

You are just now picking up on that?

And that will was not present before they knew the truth God revealed to them. It's really basic, SH.

Again, what ineffable twaddle.

Nothing in what I have said presents such a notion.

When men are enlightened to the truth, whether it be Old Testament Revelation or the Gospel, it is at that point they have an ability to decide. In regards to believing, it is my view that all believe, and that those who follow that belief without rejecting the truth are they that are saved.

So it is more a matter of commission, really. We don't reject the truth. You weren't the judge of what is true or not in your conversion, you simply knew the revelation was the truth.

And once again you try to make God responsible for the fate of those rejecting truth.

Listen to yourself: "Just because God wrote truth on their hearts, doesn't mean they didn't already know it."

Your condition is, ironically, your faith.

Trust Christ alone, my friend. Acknowledge that He is the Savior, and doesn't need you to complete His Work.

We don't read of Christ proclaiming, "It will be finished when SH decides to believe in Me."

There is no contribution you can make that will change the basic principles of Scripture, in which you were found right there along with the rest of us: "There is none righteous, no not one." Just think about that. If you were dead in your sins, how is it that you mustered up the ability to believe? THe rest of us had to wait for God to reveal those truths to us.

Please list the doctrines I have expressed in our discussion. I already know you won't, and even if you started, you would stop, because you would see that your words are hollow.

Okay. And ...

Yes you would. That is evident in your numerous attempts to tell me what it is I believe. Most of it wrong. Some of it dishonest.

I'm not judging anyone's salvation. I believe firmly that even those that are ignorant of the Mystery of Christ can be saved. Doesn't mean I won't try to help them to have a stronger faith in Christ and a lesser view of themselves (and what they have done to contribute to their salvation).

And by the way, you're welcome.

One of my favorites ...

Speaking of obvious, I have noted several times I have never denied that repentance, faith, or belief are elements of our salvation. What I have tried to convince you of is that when you believed, that belief was a direct result of coming to the knowledge of the truth. You didn't do this yourself, because you had no ability within yourself to understand spiritual truth. This is why some believe God regenerates men prior to belief and faith, I don't take that position. There is a concurrency of elements which can no more be separated than our indwelling of God can be. We are indwelt by God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost when we receive Him, and we change from those who have no life in us because we were not believing in Christ, to those who are now alive from an eternal perspective, because we are in Him and He in us.

It is the order of salvation that usually comes to the table. Few take seriously those who believe repentance, faith, and belief are works men do as a condition of salvation.


God bless.

 

Sorry, but the repeated insults makes me conclude that you are not serious about discussing the issues at hand. Perhaps at a later date we might be able to look at these things in a discussion. Added to that is the refusal to respond to direct questions.

I wish you the best of luck in your studies.


God bless.

 

@Silverhair corrupts the word 'faith' by making it a choice made by the creature.

 

Just once.

It would sound something like this: "I know that within me there is no good thing that I can offer up to God to convince Him to save me. I know there is no contribution to the One Who died alone on the Cross to redeem my sin. I fully acknowledge to God that I am eternally in His debt for saving someone so grossly indebted to sin. I know fully that before even before the first sin was committed, God saw me, and loved me, even while in the throes of sin, and that the punishment I warranted through the actions my nature allowed—that which loomed on my horizon at death—He took upon Himself.

Because He first loved me.

God's Sovereignty in salvation precedes Man's sin itself. Those He saves were known to Him prior to Creation. Where can a man interject his efforts into the love that, like salvation itself, is the gift of God. He didn't need to love us, but He did.

I'm not sure how one can conclude those dead in trespasses and sins can contribute to salvation. By grace are ye saved through faith, and this not of yourself.

Is your faith of yourself? It is if it is a condition by which you are saved. You can't exclude faith, seeing it is an element of salvation, and thus falls under the salvation you received by the grace of God.


God bless.

 

It's an easy trap to fall into. We can probably thank the antagonism between Protestants and Catholics, in large part. When an element of salvation takes center stage it is often to the detriment of a rounded understanding of salvation as a whole.

It's kind of like the issue of Mary. Some Catholics defend it so hard that they end up getting the wrong conclusion as to her part. Then it's easier to make her the "queen of heaven."

The issue of being saved by faith through grace is a common one from what I have seen on the forums.


God bless.