Featured Lydia's Conversion

You are right. Although I admit that there is an impossibility on our part to truly understand both truths simultaneously. And so most go one way or the other. We know there was God's sovereignty involved or Paul wouldn't even have gone there to talk to Lydia. That is stated. But the idea that everyone absolutely hates God in their total depravity before they are regenerated doesn't seem to fit well in Lydia's case or Cornelius or others in scripture.

 

Is it just too far fetched for you all to accept that both were already born from above? All that was lacking was for them to enter the kingdom?

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

 

I have no trouble believing that God's grace was already being shown in their cases. As for them already being born again, I do have a problem with that. The idea that God's grace is ultimately involved in our coming to faith is taught by Calvin, Owen, but also Arminius and Wesley as well. But they all said that the actual word of God and the gospel was essential for them to be saved. Both are in operation. I can't speak for @Baptizo but in my opinion it is a heresy to believe that one can be born again without the gospel message.

 

Notice what it says, my friend:

"...whose heart the Lord opened..."
So that " she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

In other words, we are told why the Lord opened her heart;
So that she listened to what Paul had to say.
What it doesn't say...

That she opened her own heart, so that she would listen to what Paul had to say.


To me, the fact that she already worshiped God speaks of Him already working in her...but what made me really sit up and take notice the first time I read this years ago, is the fact that it was the Lord who did the work of opening her heart, and for a specific purpose.

 

It's literally 'born from above', OT & NT, NOT born again or anew. Born of God John 1:13, Born from Jerusalem above, the mother of us all, Galatians 4:26-29, Psalms 87.

"The Spirit where wills doth blow", He's not carried around by preachers or evangelists, or missionaries, or Sunday School teachers, etc., He goes where He wants.

Not talking about 'saved' Dave, which is synonymous with 'entering the kingdom' Matthew 19:23-25. Before one can enter, or even see the kingdom of God they must first be born of God John 3:3-5. Lydia, Nathanael, Cornelius, Ethiopian enuch, devout Jews at Pentecost, God's 'much people at Corinth' all examples born from above BEFORE saved.

And Dave, I won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying that you think me to be a heretic. I've already told you my opinion of you.

 

BINGO!!

 

I never really know how to take you Ky. First, you use a scripture example that synergists often cite as a problem passage for a monergist in that it would make no difference if someone is rich or not if it was all of God. Then you quote John 3:3-5 and because you then follow with some names that proves that all those were born from above before being saved. I really don't know what your point is.

I don't think you are a heretic but if that is what you believe it is generally considered a heretical view. To clarify, it is generally the opinion of those who believe that salvation is all of God that the work of the Holy Spirit consists mainly in an illumination and working of faith that was accompanied by the hearing of the gospel message. Which is why in the case of Lydia and the Ethiopian eunuch, while the Spirit I believe was indeed already at work in them they were saved after they heard the gospel message clearly taught.

Now, I am disagreeing with some people who I truly respect, like Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones when I say I do not believe that you are born again before you believe. But that does not mean that the position I then have to take is that you work up belief all by yourself, from within your autonomous free will, and the credit for believing goes to your good decision making ability. I don't believe that either. And in all fairness to me, I should point out that in the Westminster Confession of Faith the OP's point is clearly stated - that God's sovereignty and mans free will are at work. That means we can assert both and be confessional if that means anything to you. In fact, it means we actually must assert both and honestly I find many on this board unable to do that.

 

Again, we're told right in Acts 16:14 why He did it...so that she would listen to what Paul had to say.

Since, according to what Paul tells us in Romans 3:10-18, and what David tells us in Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and others that there are none that seek after God,
Why then does anyone diligently seek Him?

"Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ).

Because God has chosen them to ( and specifically created them for ) an eternal relationship with Him and His Son. His Spirit has caused those who have truly believed on Christ, to approach Him, in their hearts and minds..
Please see Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 10 and the Psalms for starters.


They are His elect, chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, just as Paul told the church at Ephesus.
Please see Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2.

 

Precisely. my friend...
But not in order to be saved, but because she was and is saved.

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

God's elect, so chosen before the foundation of the world, will indeed hear and believe the words of their Saviour...
and they will come when they are called.

 

No, Baptizo, He does not draw everyone into an eternal relationship with Him.
Have you not read that if all men are drawn ( the word "men" is in italics, at least in the KJV ), then ALL men will be raised up at the last day by the Lord...
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

Instead of those that are saved at the first resurrection on the last day, and the rest 1000 years later at the second resurrection?
Revelation 20:1-6.

At any rate, I see where this is leading.
You honestly do not see, from the Scriptures, that God makes both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, and that the reason that anyone is saved is because they are a "vessel" of mercy, prepared by God for that relationship ( Romans 9 ).

We'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.
For, can two walk together unless they are agreed?
No they cannot ( Amos 3:3 ).


May God bless you.

 

My purpose here isn't to debate, or to have any kind of "last word", Baptizo.
I'm only here on this forum to present the truth.

I'm not a "Calvinist", but I am often mistaken for one.
I'm a Christian, and I believe God's every word, Genesis to Revelation.

 

Gifts aren't free ( and aren't gifts ) if one has to do something in order to get them, Baptizo.

It seems that what you're describing in the above, is an exchange system supposedly arranged by God;
Our belief on His Son, for the reward of eternal life.
That is not how He works, and not how He saves. Rather, He saves whom He will, not whom we will.

Belief from the heart is something that begins with the Lord, and is something only His elect can and will do.
For example, God's word tells us that it is given to them... both to believe, and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
It is given to them...not something they can "will up" or that God "requires" from spiritually dead men and women in order to save them.

To punctuate this truth, we are told that no man can come to Christ, unless it is given to them to do so ( John 6:64-65 ) by His Father.

The elect will persevere because they are kept in their relationship by the power of God ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not their own; and because, among other reasons, God tells us that not one of the ones given to the Lord Jesus will be lost ( John 6:39 )...
But they were the ones bought by His blood, not the false teachers.

False teachers ( who preach a false gospel ) are under the anathema Paul speaks of in Galatians 1;
Christ's precious blood did not cleanse them, did not purchase them and God does not love them...They are described as being cursed by God and can ( and sometimes do ) deny the Lord that bought His people, however.

The Lord that bought people like Lydia.


That said, I wish you well.
This will be my last post in this thread.

 

A gift must be received as a gift. Matthew 7:21, . . . he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . .

 

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

The spirit gives life not the gospel message. The gospel message brings the life to light