Lydia's Conversion

[Baptizo]

What I see here is God's sovereignty and human free choice working together. There is no conflict between the two.

Acts 16:14 - And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Genesis 4:7 - If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Proverbs 8:35 - For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

She believed in the existence of God. She desired to have a relationship with God. She sought after the truth and God revealed it to her through the preaching of the Gospel.

 

[DaveXR650]

What I see here is God's sovereignty and human free choice working together. There is no conflict between the two.

You are right. Although I admit that there is an impossibility on our part to truly understand both truths simultaneously. And so most go one way or the other. We know there was God's sovereignty involved or Paul wouldn't even have gone there to talk to Lydia. That is stated. But the idea that everyone absolutely hates God in their total depravity before they are regenerated doesn't seem to fit well in Lydia's case or Cornelius or others in scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

She believed in the existence of God. She desired to have a relationship with God. She sought after the truth and God revealed it to her through the preaching of the Gospel.

But the idea that everyone absolutely hates God in their total depravity before they are regenerated doesn't seem to fit well in Lydia's case or Cornelius or others in scripture.

Is it just too far fetched for you all to accept that both were already born from above? All that was lacking was for them to enter the kingdom?

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3

 

[DaveXR650]

Is it just too far fetched for you all to accept that both were already born from above?

I have no trouble believing that God's grace was already being shown in their cases. As for them already being born again, I do have a problem with that. The idea that God's grace is ultimately involved in our coming to faith is taught by Calvin, Owen, but also Arminius and Wesley as well. But they all said that the actual word of God and the gospel was essential for them to be saved. Both are in operation. I can't speak for @Baptizo but in my opinion it is a heresy to believe that one can be born again without the gospel message.

 

[Baptizo]

Is it just too far fetched for you all to accept that both were already born from above?

I understand that you believe they were born again before faith occurred. I believe that they were born again when faith occurred.

 

[Dave G]

Acts 16:14 - And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Notice what it says, my friend:

"...whose heart the Lord opened..."
So that " she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

In other words, we are told why the Lord opened her heart;
So that she listened to what Paul had to say.
What it doesn't say...

That she opened her own heart, so that she would listen to what Paul had to say.


To me, the fact that she already worshiped God speaks of Him already working in her...but what made me really sit up and take notice the first time I read this years ago, is the fact that it was the Lord who did the work of opening her heart, and for a specific purpose.

 

[kyredneck]

I understand that you believe they were born again before faith occurred. I believe that they were born again when faith occurred.

I have no trouble believing that God's grace was already being shown in their cases. As for them already being born again, I do have a problem with that.

It's literally 'born from above', OT & NT, NOT born again or anew. Born of God John 1:13, Born from Jerusalem above, the mother of us all, Galatians 4:26-29, Psalms 87.

"The Spirit where wills doth blow", He's not carried around by preachers or evangelists, or missionaries, or Sunday School teachers, etc., He goes where He wants.

The idea that God's grace is ultimately involved in our coming to faith is taught by Calvin, Owen, but also Arminius and Wesley as well. But they all said that the actual word of God and the gospel was essential for them to be saved. Both are in operation.

Not talking about 'saved' Dave, which is synonymous with 'entering the kingdom' Matthew 19:23-25. Before one can enter, or even see the kingdom of God they must first be born of God John 3:3-5. Lydia, Nathanael, Cornelius, Ethiopian enuch, devout Jews at Pentecost, God's 'much people at Corinth' all examples born from above BEFORE saved.

And Dave, I won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying that you think me to be a heretic. I've already told you my opinion of you.

 

[kyredneck]

To me, the fact that she already worshiped God speaks of Him already working in her.

BINGO!!

 

[DaveXR650]

Not talking about 'saved' Dave, which is synonymous with 'entering the kingdom' Matthew 19:23-25. Before one can enter, or even see the kingdom of God they must first be born of God John 3:3-5. Lydia, Nathanael, Cornelius, Ethiopian enuch, devout Jews at Pentacost, God's 'much people at Corinth' all examples born from above BEFORE saved.

And Dave, I won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying that you think me to be a heretic. I've already told you my opinion of you.

I never really know how to take you Ky. First, you use a scripture example that synergists often cite as a problem passage for a monergist in that it would make no difference if someone is rich or not if it was all of God. Then you quote John 3:3-5 and because you then follow with some names that proves that all those were born from above before being saved. I really don't know what your point is.

And Dave, I won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying that you think me to be a heretic. I've already told you my opinion of you.

I don't think you are a heretic but if that is what you believe it is generally considered a heretical view. To clarify, it is generally the opinion of those who believe that salvation is all of God that the work of the Holy Spirit consists mainly in an illumination and working of faith that was accompanied by the hearing of the gospel message. Which is why in the case of Lydia and the Ethiopian eunuch, while the Spirit I believe was indeed already at work in them they were saved after they heard the gospel message clearly taught.

Now, I am disagreeing with some people who I truly respect, like Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones when I say I do not believe that you are born again before you believe. But that does not mean that the position I then have to take is that you work up belief all by yourself, from within your autonomous free will, and the credit for believing goes to your good decision making ability. I don't believe that either. And in all fairness to me, I should point out that in the Westminster Confession of Faith the OP's point is clearly stated - that God's sovereignty and mans free will are at work. That means we can assert both and be confessional if that means anything to you. In fact, it means we actually must assert both and honestly I find many on this board unable to do that.

 

[Baptizo]

In other words, we are told why the Lord opened her heart

I agree that the opening of the heart was all the work of the Lord. But why did He open her heart? I find that answer in Heb 11:6 …He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

To me, the fact that she already worshiped God speaks of Him already working in her

Presumably, Lydia was a Gentile adherent to Judaism. She still needed to hear the Gospel in order to be saved.

 

[Dave G]

But why did He open her heart?

Again, we're told right in Acts 16:14 why He did it...so that she would listen to what Paul had to say.

I find that answer in Heb 11:6 …He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

Since, according to what Paul tells us in Romans 3:10-18, and what David tells us in Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and others that there are none that seek after God,
Why then does anyone diligently seek Him?

"Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 ).

Because God has chosen them to ( and specifically created them for ) an eternal relationship with Him and His Son. His Spirit has caused those who have truly believed on Christ, to approach Him, in their hearts and minds..
Please see Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 10 and the Psalms for starters.


They are His elect, chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, just as Paul told the church at Ephesus.
Please see Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2.

 

[Dave G]

Presumably, Lydia was a Gentile adherent to Judaism. She still needed to hear the Gospel in order to be saved.

Precisely. my friend...
But not in order to be saved, but because she was and is saved.

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

God's elect, so chosen before the foundation of the world, will indeed hear and believe the words of their Saviour...
and they will come when they are called.

 

[Baptizo]

Why then does anyone diligently seek Him?

You are right. They can't on their own. That is why Christ has to draw them.

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Dave G]

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

No, Baptizo, He does not draw everyone into an eternal relationship with Him.
Have you not read that if all men are drawn ( the word "men" is in italics, at least in the KJV ), then ALL men will be raised up at the last day by the Lord...
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

Instead of those that are saved at the first resurrection on the last day, and the rest 1000 years later at the second resurrection?
Revelation 20:1-6.

At any rate, I see where this is leading.
You honestly do not see, from the Scriptures, that God makes both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, and that the reason that anyone is saved is because they are a "vessel" of mercy, prepared by God for that relationship ( Romans 9 ).

We'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.
For, can two walk together unless they are agreed?
No they cannot ( Amos 3:3 ).


May God bless you.

 

[Baptizo]

We'll have to agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.

Let me address this point and then you can have the last word if you wish.

He does not draw everyone into an eternal relationship with Him.

I agree. Not everyone who is drawn will accept the free gift of salvation.

2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Matthew 10:33 - But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

It's clear to me that you're a Calvinist, which is fine. I love my Calvinist brothers. But I see this creates two possible issues for the P in TULIP. The Arminian would say that they lost their salvation by the same way they obtained it (free will). The Calvinist would say that denying the Lord is impossible because He will cause the elect to persevere. However, it clearly says they were bought. I just don't see latter being consistent.

God makes both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy

I see that the potter and clay analogy is based on a condition. Either continue in evil and be fitted as a vessel for wrath or do good and be fitted as a vessel for honor.

Jeremiah 18:6-8 - O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 - But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[Dave G]

Let me address this point and then you can have the last word if you wish.

My purpose here isn't to debate, or to have any kind of "last word", Baptizo.
I'm only here on this forum to present the truth.

It's clear to me that you're a Calvinist, which is fine.

I'm not a "Calvinist", but I am often mistaken for one.
I'm a Christian, and I believe God's every word, Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Dave G]

Not everyone who is drawn will accept the free gift of salvation.

Gifts aren't free ( and aren't gifts ) if one has to do something in order to get them, Baptizo.

It seems that what you're describing in the above, is an exchange system supposedly arranged by God;
Our belief on His Son, for the reward of eternal life.
That is not how He works, and not how He saves. Rather, He saves whom He will, not whom we will.

Belief from the heart is something that begins with the Lord, and is something only His elect can and will do.
For example, God's word tells us that it is given to them... both to believe, and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
It is given to them...not something they can "will up" or that God "requires" from spiritually dead men and women in order to save them.

To punctuate this truth, we are told that no man can come to Christ, unless it is given to them to do so ( John 6:64-65 ) by His Father.

The Calvinist would say that denying the Lord is impossible because He will cause the elect to persevere. However, it clearly says they were bought. I just don't see latter being consistent.

The elect will persevere because they are kept in their relationship by the power of God ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not their own; and because, among other reasons, God tells us that not one of the ones given to the Lord Jesus will be lost ( John 6:39 )...
But they were the ones bought by His blood, not the false teachers.

False teachers ( who preach a false gospel ) are under the anathema Paul speaks of in Galatians 1;
Christ's precious blood did not cleanse them, did not purchase them and God does not love them...They are described as being cursed by God and can ( and sometimes do ) deny the Lord that bought His people, however.

The Lord that bought people like Lydia.


That said, I wish you well.
This will be my last post in this thread.

 

[37818]

Gifts aren't free ( and aren't gifts ) if one has to do something in order to get them, . . .

A gift must be received as a gift. Matthew 7:21, . . . he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . .

 

[37818]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have no trouble believing that God's grace was already being shown in their cases. As for them already being born again, I do have a problem with that. The idea that God's grace is ultimately involved in our coming to faith is taught by Calvin, Owen, but also Arminius and Wesley as well. But they all said that the actual word of God and the gospel was essential for them to be saved. Both are in operation. I can't speak for @Baptizo but in my opinion it is a heresy to believe that one can be born again without the gospel message.

The spirit gives life not the gospel message. The gospel message brings the life to light