Featured The Reformers - The Doctrine of Drawing - And Serious Error?

The Reformed of whatever denominational flavor seems to think that God was laying out a program for the ages when John quoted Jesus saying, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." I know that he was not laying out a program for the ages.

One thing I am sure of and that is that God the Father did not draw a single Reformed believer in the same manner as he drew those Jews in John 6. I would be interested to see how a Reformed believer would show how he was personally drawn by the Father and what he was drawn by the Father to do.

This is a provocative title but a man who believes and teaches this should be able to present a sensible and reasonable and logical defense of it from the scriptures, if this is what they teach.

I do not think it can be proven by sound bites or by attacking those who ask you to defend it.

 

I know this because of the nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is an invitation and an opportunity.

What is it the Jews had that non Jews did not have? And why is it mentioned in the context of John 6 (i.e. V45) as the agency of the darwing of the Father to the Son? What is the transition when it will be the Son who draws all men unto himself in chapter 7?

These words are to be taken much more literally than most wants to take them unless a clear metaphor is being discussed, as it is in John 6. The metaphor of the manna of Israel's years past is intended to teach a greater NT truth that will be fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

I will remind the folks here that Jesus Christ came in the flesh to reveal the Father. In the OT the righteous were regarded by God as servants. In the NT the righteous shall be regarded as sons of God in his family.

Here is the progression , so far.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth (from this point onward) I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

After the cross we have the final relationship.

1 jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The trinitarian signature. I see it everywhere. Servants, friends, sons.

 

If a doctrine is established in the scriptures there must then be a consistent application of it through the scriptures. In the case of the word "draw" there is no such consistency. It is used only once to indicate that the Father draws men to Christ. That is all. There is no body of teaching associated with it and there is no comparisons to establish that God intends this to be his MO through the NT time period.

Below is all the verses where this word appears and something that is very striking and instructive is that Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, who is charged to make known to the gentiles the operative principles of God to them does not one time use the word in all his 13 epistles. Neither do any of the Jewish Christian epistles make mention of the Father drawing men to Christ.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me.
Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

The Reformed have made this a fundamental of their teaching on their doctrine of salvation and their exclusive position as being the object of his grace. It is so wrong.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, he says. He does not say he draws men to Christ except in the context of the Jews who had the OT scriptures where the miraculous provision of God for their needs in the physical realm were designed to prepare them to understand a spiritual truth. Those who had a heart for God would be able to make the connection by logic, reason, faith, and experience. Jesus was the bread, he said. He was the manna. The properties of the manna and the person of Jesus Christ were the same. The difference was the manna must be ingested over and over for the partakers to have life from it while eating the body of Christ gave them "eternal" life. Those who comprehended this came to him in faith.

Jesus Christ must be in them to give them life. This is accomplished after he died and rose again and sent his omniscient Spirit back to dwell in men. Eating in John 6 equates to believing.

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I trust you will understand that I am not trying to win an argument or upset anyone. I am trying to exalt our Lord Jesus Christ and tell the truth so others might believe in him.

 

A lot of verbs in those two short sentences, wouldn't you say?

 

Dave, having read your commentary over time and concluding I would probably like you if you lived next door. But I also conclude that you probably spend more time with library books and reading men like Owens and other Calvinists than with the Bible itself.

Have you ever done a word study on the word "generation?" I have studied it and have come to realize that God counts our generation to be 70 years. Psalm 90, the oldest Psalm in scripture and penned by Moses, is one place where that idea comes forth, particularly in verse ten. Then if you narrow your study down to the four gospels, which is a record of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ from his conception to his death and resurrection, you would probably consider that in a perfect world that he would be born and grow up and complete all the Father planned to do through him in "his generation." (see Matthew 1:1) He did say he came to fulfill all that was written of him in the Psalms and the law and the prophets.

So from this one can say that the gospel accounts and apostolic era, which ended in 70 AD, was the time and responsibility of this one generation, the generation of Jesus Christ, and they failed through sin and unbelief. It was this generation that was tasked to recognize by the scriptures and by his presence, the Messiah and King of Israel and instead of ushering in the purpose of God this generation committed the unpardonable sin. Here is just one thing Jesus says at the end of his earthly ministry to this generation these words;

Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

There is so much God would teach us if we believe his words. There is so much to know about the generation of Jesus Christ but people are focusing on a non doctrine like "draw" and know nothing of the purpose of God for his own generation. This generation "must" come to Jesus Christ for all to be fulfilled in it This is just the truth.

There was an epic event at the end of 70 years but it was not the fulfillment of all things written about Jesus in the OT. It was a burial of a nation who would not accept her Messiah and destiny. Instead of life they received death because separation is the definition of death. The nation and the generation of Jesus Christ ended at the same time in 70 AD. They were dead and cast out of their land and cut off from their covenants and buried in the graveyard of the nations. Jesus would have come back and they could have had eternal life had they believed in him. Now, Jesus is away in heaven with the Father and time has ended for the nation and Jews in other lands are reckoned as gentiles and God will save them one at a time like he saves all gentiles and they will become members of the church of Jesus Christ. Thus, the church of Jesus Christ takes on a gentile characteristic and the nation awaits a resurrection when Christ will come again and give them life.

Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.


15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Life from the dead is a resurrection!

Still speaking to the gentiles, he says;

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Remember the parable; Go into the hedges and highways and compel them to come in that my house may be full.

What next?

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If they are resurrected to life, time will begin for them again. I urge you to study the New Testament scriptures that all took place, with the exception of John's epistles and the Revelation during these 70 years, called "this generation." It will help your vision.

 

Dave, I was not always as strong in my understanding that the KJV is the word of God for us English speakers. In my youth I purchased a copy of the Living Bible and read it for a while. No one in those days with whom I fellowshipped would have objected and eventually I stopped reading it because it just did not bear witness with my spirit and I discarded it never to read it again. It was not because I was influenced in any way by the KJV only crowd of which I knew very little. I was a Southern Baptist in a small community. I left the Southern Baptist in about 1983, not because of the Bible issue but because of compromise as a denomination. I came to understand that many denominational leaders of whom I supported through the co-operative program did not believe any Bible and I was convicted in my conscience about that. However it wasn't until my church was without a pastor that the powers that be decided to call a new pastor who was a member in good standing with the Masonic Lodge that prompted me to leave that church and the denomination. Would any man want his family under such lack of discernment and compromise. I did not. A little leaven leavens the whole lump!

Through the providence of God I met a man in a community about 20 miles away who was a church planter and was starting an independent Baptist church. He was a graduate of BJU. I was there with him about 12 years and though he did not make KJV an "only" he never ever preached from or promoted any other Bible. Of all the missionaries and visiting preachers I never can remember any other translation being used by them. I would have picked up on it because I study my KJV and know it well. Independent Baptist preachers just seemed to know God and recognized his word and gravitated to it in those days.

I can look back in my growth as a Christian and see the transitional stages in my development of becoming KJV only as a personal conviction on the written word of God issue. If you and I were sitting at the table conversing I could tell you of specific times, even to the detail of where I was when God taught me through my meditation certain truths that were game changers for me and was like a light of understanding things I had wondered about suddenly came on. Of course I do not have time or space here for such detail but when I learned that all God's truth was presented with both a physical and spiritual element and one was a type of the other it opened up a whole new way of gaining understanding of the mind of God. This is the reason I brought up John 6 and the manna. It is the physical type of the spiritual antitype of which Jesus Christ completes. We can confirm our doctrines in our own hearts if we know this.

This truth is presented to us by God in his scriptures in so many ways. Take, for instance, the "as" and "so" verses in the scriptures. The "as" is the type and is generally something we are familiar with and is physical while the "so" refers to the spiritual workings of God. If you were to look at Romans 5 in this light you can see it clearly.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

As you can see, sometimes it is a contrasting type.

Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Check this out:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Consider the parables. They are designed by God to take something common to us and use it for light on a future event. Who does not know what leaven is and does. It is used in baking bread and it permeates the whole loaf and swells it up. It is used of Jesus as "evil."

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Check the parable just before the leaven.

Mt 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Birds are almost always in scripture a symbol of demons and emissaries of Satan.

You see how the tree is abnormal in it's growth and size? The kingdom of heaven is this age. The parables are the mysteries. The kingdom in it's mystery form while the King is away is like this. The parables are prophecies. They are progressive. one follows the other in time. The parable of the woman with leaven is the 4th of seven parables in Matt 13 that chronicles this age. Not coincidentally, the woman in the 4th church in Revelation 2 does false teaching. Look:

Re 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

This is the same woman that is in Matt 13.
This is the introduction of Catholicism and her daughters. It is leaven and if the first false doctrine and practice of this whore don't get you the next one just might. This is where this philosophy of new Bibles comes from.

I have written a lot here Dave. Who would have any incentive to study the mind of God by doing word studies of what he said if you have 150 English Bible translations, all with different words? Answer; nobody! What could you learn from them? Answer; Nothing!

I would like to weigh in on your second paragraph. I might do that later.

 

If you were to present such a teaching from the scriptures I think I would believe it but where would you begin to teach it? It is one thing to think it and another to prove it is scriptural. I know for sure that I cannot find such teaching in the scriptures. Now, Dave, carefully read this scripture that I am quoting now and consider exactly what it says.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel, not the Spirit, is the first contact for a sinner. The Spirit is not working in the sinner but is working in the preacher. The preacher is instructed to be "filled with the Spirit" and he is said to be working in the preacher to accomplish the purpose toward the sinner. Whether the sinner receives the Spirit, which is the promise and the gift of God and who enters the sinner when he believes the gospel, and who is life, is not in the hands of the Spirit, or God the Father or Jesus Christ, but in the sinner himself. The gospel is that which enters through the ear (faith comes by hearing) and enters into the conscience, which all men have. This is where consciousness of right and wrong resides and where the moral law is written. It is this law that convinces all men of sin because it is perfect.

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

To be sure, good men believe as you do. I have a very good friend who devotes himself to witnessing to all he meets. The trunk of his car is always filled with gospel tracks and Bibles. He loves the Lord Jesus. We talk often and he is always telling me who he has given the gospel to and often times he will pray that the Spirit work in their hearts to bring them to salvation. I never say anything about that to him because he is not ready to be corrected. It will not hurt for him to believe that.

That is something that nobody ever questions and studies out. Someone at some point in history has made that doctrine and people just hold to it. I am going to guess that my pastor, a very good man, probably believes it for that reason. But I don't believe it.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I suggest reading Ga 3 in this contest. I think I am telling the truth about this.
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I will read your logic and reasoning if you will write it out so I can see it.