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Featured Why did God Arrange the Fall?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 30, 2024.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When you ask if a person believes a false doctrine, you are insinuating they believe that doctrine.

    The result is a petty personality dispute rather than a discussion of biblical doctrine.
     
    #21 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...and here it is, again:

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
    10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph 3
     
    #22 kyredneck, Jul 31, 2024
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did God desire to send the fallen to Hades and Gehenna? Nope,

    Eze 18:32
    “For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live!”

    Psalms 5:4
    For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
    No evil can dwell with You.
    ​

    So why did God arrange the fall?

    First we must ask why did God choose to create humanity in the first place.

    The answer is that He takes pleasure in His people. Those He chooses as His own possession. Psalms 149 teaches God takes pleasure in "His people" those that He has glorified with salvation. Thus God's purpose and plan was to choose for Himself a people needing salvation. And this glorification would including giving mercy to them. Thus the fall, made humanity in need of salvation, and in need of mercy. See 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Does the indicated timing for His choice of the individuals to be His people come before creation or after the Fall, after they needed mercy?

    Scripture says:

    1 Peter 2:9-10
    But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you     had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. ​


    Obviously since we once had not received the mercy of being chosen as God's own possession, we were chosen individually after we were created as fallen individuals. This is the logical necessity of scripture.

    God's purpose and plan was to choose "fallen people" who had repented, thus bringing Him glory.

    Consider Gideon, and God reducing the size of his army so that the victory would bring Him greater glory. Same purpose is fulfilled when "fallen people" repent, turn to and trust in God, as that brings greater glory to God.
     
    #23 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The title of this thread, "Why did God arrange the fall?" Can be understood to propose a false doctrine. So "arrange" meaning what? God authored the fall?
     
    #24 37818, Jul 31, 2024
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, why did God arrange the Fall addresses why the Fall occurred, rather than how the Fall occurred

    I provided the answer to that question, so why try to change the subject.
     
    #25 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I was not changing the subject. I wanted to understand your intented subject.

    I see an answer.
    Please see, Why did God create the tree of knowledge of good and evil if . . . ?
     
    #26 37818, Jul 31, 2024
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So that He could magnify the Glory of His Grace in Saving Sinners,

    Eph 2:5-7

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    Eph 1:6

    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
     
    #27 Brightfame52, Jul 31, 2024
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  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    He predestined Christ to be the redeemer from sin before He created the world, explain that please 1 Pet 1:18-20

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained[predestinate] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
     
    #28 Brightfame52, Jul 31, 2024
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Goes with us being chosen in Christ before the fall, per Ephesians 1:4, . . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . .
     
    #29 37818, Jul 31, 2024
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To the OP,

    There are several things to consider. A couple are:

    God planted the Garden.

    God took Adam from where he was created (and later returned) and put Adam in the Garden.


    Why does Scripture make the point that Adam was not created in the Garden but was placed there where he would be in the presence of God in an unique way?
     
    #30 JonC, Jul 31, 2024
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  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Then God predestinated sin into the world, its quite obvious. He created this world to be a stage for His Glorious Grace.
     
    #31 Brightfame52, Jul 31, 2024
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We don't agree.
     
    #32 37818, Jul 31, 2024
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God chose His Redeemer before the Fall to redeem those He would choose after the Fall. And to accomplish this purpose God arranged for the Fall, providing the opportunity for Adam to choose to sin by eating the forbidden fruit. This is no way predestined the Fall, but God's Redeemer was predestined to be the Lamb of God before the Fall.
     
    #33 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The thing is, God did not need to predestine the Fall. Adam followed his desires.
     
    #34 JonC, Jul 31, 2024
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As I said God arranged for the Fall, thus putting Adam in proximity to the tree with the forbidden fruit, and to allow Satan access to Eve were part of His arrangement for the Fall.

    However the subject of the thread is Why did God arrange for the Fall, and the answer from scripture is to magnify His glory when fallen sinners repent and turn to and trust in God.


    Revelation 16:9
    And the people were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.     ​
     
    #35 Van, Jul 31, 2024
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As a sidelight, this reason for God arranging the Fall makes no sense if the lost repent because they are compelled with irresistible grace. If you make a doll with a pull string, and it says 'I love you" when the string is pulled, that does not give love to the string puller.
     
    #36 Van, Jul 31, 2024
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Okay thats fine.
     
    #37 Brightfame52, Aug 1, 2024
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    He did predestine the fall, He predestined Christ to die for sin before the world began, In fact in the Eternal Mind of God, Christ was already slain for the sins of the elect from or before the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The word slain is the greek word sphazō:

    1. to slay, slaughter, butcher

    2. to put to death by violence

    3. mortally wounded
    Its in the perfect tense which means:

    In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

    So when Adam was formed from the dust, he was predestined to sin for Christs sake
     
    #38 Brightfame52, Aug 1, 2024
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry Sir but it is pointless to go on. You continue with your non-sequitur. God having a redemption plan before the Fall does not support the God caused Adam to sin. He arranged for and allowed Adam to sin.

    And citing Revelation 13:8 contributes nothing as the phrase "from the foundation of the world modifies "...not written in the book of life. See the same construction at Revelation 17:8. That is why modern translations render the verse this way:

    Rev 13:8 NET
    and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

    Proving "A" (God's plan of redemption included the fall was formulated before creation) does not prove "B" (God caused Adam to sin.)​
     
    #39 Van, Aug 1, 2024
  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    He did predestine the fall, He predestined Christ to die for sin before the world began,
     
    #40 Brightfame52, Aug 1, 2024
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