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Featured The Reformers - The Doctrine of Drawing - And Serious Error?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, Jul 25, 2024.

  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Dave, I would like to see the scriptures saying this. Remember, the gospel comes through a preacher and his own testimony. It is a "seed" that produces life when conditions are right (1 peter 1). The spiritual like all other doctrines of God are prefigured by the physical. In the spiritual realm the seed enters through the ear. The properties of the birth are allike. There is a seed. The properties of the conception and birth are alike. It takes two for a birth to occur.

    Watch this confirmation. I will give you two passages for your consideration.

    1 Corinthians 4:15
    For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    Titus 1:4
    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Consider this. Meditate on it.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    As Nicodemus, like a moth drawn to the light....

    [add]

    ...but then, there's Paul...
     
    #22 kyredneck, Jul 29, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2024
  3. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The normal actions of your will and understanding are the only things a person will consciously notice in hearing the gospel and coming to Christ. A lot of people don't realize that Calvinists like Owen and Edwards were adamant on that.

    Also, they insisted that our so called inability to come to Christ is moral and not natural. If that were not the case then it could not be blamable for someone not to come to Christ. Someone used the example of a mother who claimed she could not stab her baby with a knife. She did have the ability in fact, but she was so against the thought of such a thing that she really was right when she said she "cannot" do such a thing. The illustration is extreme but it is an important distinction.

    When a person gets saved I think we would all agree that several things occur. You have to become aware of the basic facts of the existence of God, and his teaching on our status before him and of our need for forgiveness and so on. This is important: no Calvinist teaches that the facts concerning this are not knowable to the average person upon them hearing the gospel. But what else is going on that makes a person alarmed and under conviction and understanding personally that they indeed are personally in jeopardy and danger and that they are not right with God. This is where Calvinists, and Arminians, and Wesleyans, say that there is a working of the Holy Spirit directly upon the heart of the person in addition to the Spirits work in writing the word and in the speaker or teacher.

    This would be the "drawing" of John 6. Arminians say this drawing is on everyone, some say equally, and Calvinists say it is specific to certain individuals. It would also be what all the scriptures in both old and new testament are referring to when talking about receiving "light" for instance. Or in Edwards sermon on how we receive illumination by a supernatural light. Also Jesus discussion of how some don't seem to "hear" him but some do. He obviously doesn't mean physical hearing only.

    This came up also with Charles Spurgeon who did a sermon on his own life reflecting back on why he became a Christian. He said himself we are all saved as Arminians, meaning that we do indeed consciously "decide" for Christ but when you really think about why you did this you realize if was not just your own evaluation and decision at play here.

    Now, once your understanding is truly there you find yourself saying as the Jews did in Acts "What should we do?" Your heart has been opened, you understand, and you want to know how to be right with God. You do still need the gospel message. The question comes up as to whether all this in not in the normal ability and understanding of man and whether the word itself is all that is needed - or is a work of the Spirit like I describe truly necessary. That is where opinions of good men differ. I can add more scripture but this post is already way too long. But I hope it shows where I'm coming from.

    One more thing. I don't believe in a limited atonement and I think this grace of God can be resisted so I'm not really in the Calvinist camp. But I think the Calvinists nailed it on our will and how it works. I also don't think your views on any of these issues should affect fellowship or worshipping together with Calvinists or non Cals.
     
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  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    As someone said earlier, you must look at the whole, not just a single verse.

    John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order like the other gospels. This theme of “belief” is repetitive. Jesus links coming to Him by the “drawing” of the Father and belief in what has been taught.

    The dual themes of “drawing” and “belief” are also found in John 3, accompanied by the clear (and repeated) theme that the children of God are “born” by the will of God.

    In John 10, Jesus gives the parable of the Good Shepherd.

    Interestingly, He tells some some of the Jewish leaders they “do not believe because they are not His sheep”

    He does not say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe, but rather, they don’t believe because they are not His sheep.

    And Jesus also states that He has other sheep “not of this fold”. He is speaking of gentiles and they are saved the exact same way as the Jews, they are His sheep (they belong to Him prior to salvation) He calls them by name (a specific call to specific people) and they hear His voice and respond by following Him.

    Taken as a whole, the doctrine of effectual calling is clearly taught.

    peace to you
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am commenting in this post on your comment above that I have highlighted.

    Dave, I am sorry but you just gave your opinion. You did not make a scriptural case for your position. If you can quote a few verses in the context of salvation where this is taught, it would be helpful.

    The Jews asked the question after they heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. This chapter, Acts 2, actually is a basis for the position I take. All the work the Spirit was doing was in the preachers, not a mention about the hearers.

    Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    The promise that is being poured out from God is the promise of the Spirit. We learn in other passages that he is poured out in such abundance that the nation is immersed in him. The analogy for the Spirit is rain water. He comes from heaven at the Father's behest as water does and he is over the heads of all Israel. But he does not save any of them by being on the outside of them, he must be on the inside to give them life. The properties of the rain water and the Spirit are the same. The water can cleanse the out side, but it must be ingested to give life. This is called by God the baptism of the Spirit but it is not salvation. It illustrates the cleansing power of the water from heaven. Remember, the blood of Jesus Christ washed their sins away when he died on the cross. This water baptism is symbolic of the cleansing of the body from it's filth and receiving the Spirit into the heart effects the change of the man. Salvation is a two-fold proposition. Repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ.

    1 Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
    1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
    2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

    Let me help you with this because I know you will not get the meaning of these words.

    First of all they are in an epistle written by Peter. He wrote to the strangers scattered in Asia Minor. These were the dispersed ten tribes that had been dislodged from their land grant in 722 BC. This was because of their filthy sins created in the body. Another thing that you need to see here is that the whole house of Israel was 12 tribes. When Peter wrote this Judah was still a nation and national covenants were still in play for them. It was God's intention to get them saved by cleansing them from their unrighteousness and give them the Spirit to indwell them, thus making them children of God.

    One must understand that God views corporate Israel as his firstborn son. He is born of the flesh. He will need to be born again of the Spirit. I am not making this up. God himself tells us this.

    Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
    23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    Notice what he said to these ten tribes about conversion in the future.

    8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
    11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

    To be sons there must be a birth. In exodus 4 the corporate whole was the firstborn son. Here the promise is that they will be sons of God individually, yet one collectively. So here is another trinitarian signature when that occurs in the future, Juda, Israel and the Spirit. Three in one and one in three, a trinity.

    Something Calvinists cannot see is how God ministers to and loves Israel. In Acts 2 God calls upon every one of them to be baptized in water as a symbol of the sins he put away and by receiving the Spirit who was sent down to give them life from above. And he warns that those who will not come will be destroyed when he returns. Read it yourself.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    What if some did not do this?

    22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Lk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

    Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    I do not expect you will understand this but it proves the Spirit does not work inside an unsaved man but the word sure does.
     
  6. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    The first scripture I would have used is John 6:44 which in your OP you reject the plainest and most obvious interpretation of it. This is exactly why I avoid throwing scripture around. We all have the same verses and come up with wildly different ideas looking at the same verses. Notice I'm not slamming you or even saying you are wrong. I'm just saying we don't agree and will not agree no matter how many scriptures we share.

    There are plenty of scriptures that indicate that God or the Holy Spirit must do a work directly on the heart in addition to the actual delivery of Spirit inspired words. Here's one:
    "Jeremiah 31:18-19 ... turn thou me and I shall be turned....after that I was turned I repented..."

    Lamentations 5:21 "Turn thou us unto thee O Lord, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old."

    You will not accept these verses because you have different views of how Jews were dealt with as compared to us. I say those verses are still valid so here we are.

    I disagree with the premise that the Holy Spirit is working only in the messenger rather than the person hearing. Clearly the Holy Spirit filled the Apostles and gave them wisdom, told them what to say, where to go next, and gave them boldness and even the ability to speak in other languages. But think. If the power is only in the messenger how exactly is it working on the people? The words have to have an effect on the people. And then, we have numerous verses explaining that in our normal state we tend not to think much of such words and may even consider them foolish, but at least baffling. And again, if the Holy Spirit power was only involved in the preacher then why does one person believe and another not?
    Paul said he deliberately kept his message simple so that God would get all the glory for the success of his preaching.

    Two people sit together and hear the same message. One is saved and the other is not. What would you say accounts for this? Maybe one is more virtuous than the other. Or smarter. The vast majority of Christians, including non-Cavinists and Roman Catholics would deny this. They would say it was because of God's grace any of us hear the gospel. I would like to know what you think the reason is.

    Now I admit that while you can't get away from the "drawing" verses you can find verses that indicate the drawing is on everyone. Also, in John 3 it says men did not believe because "they loved darkness rather than light". Maybe that is a proof of lack of virtue but still, it leaves the question open regarding the fact that people who were of that opinion are sometimes converted. Something happened to them.

    Then you get into the question of how exactly do you get virtue. Do you will yourself to gain virtue? If so, where did you come up with such a virtuous plan - to start working at virtue. This gets into the problem "free willers" have. If you insist on the supremacy of your free will then you have to will yourself to will something, which as humans we know that is not how we operate. We simply find ourselves wanting something or seeing the value of something or realizing that something is true and worthy of our attention and then we act based on those perceptions. A Calvinist says that those perceptions of the value and beauty of Christ and the plan salvation, and the understanding of our sinful state in a true and saving way require some action of the Spirit directly on us, individually. Others say that while the above is true, men can and do indeed still obstinately refuse this so while it is "effectual" obviously in those who are saved, it is not irresistible. But some say that with the preaching of the word man is naturally able to understand and respond in a saving way or not. That's what it comes down to. Sorry to be so long.
     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Evangelicals. Ignoring 'the wrath to come' upon that generation that murdered Christ. It's like a Grand Canyon sized chasm in your theology. You're not just missing a piece of the puzzle, you've tossed half of it out.
     
    #27 kyredneck, Aug 1, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2024
  8. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean. My quote was from Acts 2:37-39 and I was just trying to show JD that the ones who said that were "pricked to the heart" by the Holy Spirit. In other words the HS was acting directly on their souls before they chose to repent or believe. They were being "drawn" sovereignly and first in order of time and logic. That was the only point I was trying to make.
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Your point is the typical 'orthodox evangelical' 'take', that this is an example of the Spirit 'wooing lost souls' to come to Christ, when it's actually a 'conviction' through the mouths of witnesses of a crime that took place.
     
    #29 kyredneck, Aug 1, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2024
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    What happened after God Holy Spirit “convicted” them of the truth they had murdered the Messiah?

    peace to you
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    They repented, were baptized, and 'saved themselves' from 'that crooked generation'.

    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
    5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    @canadyjd

    Take note that those that "repented, were baptized, and 'saved themselves' from 'that crooked generation'" were not totally depraved men bound for hell. These were His people, His sheep:

    Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2
     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    It was a conviction of a crime that took place I guess but why the attack on orthodox evangelical? What exactly are you then?
    Verse 38 says they were in the first group that received an "offer" of the gospel which was that this person Jesus who was crucified and rose again was "both Lord and Christ" (vs 36) and that they could "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.(vs 38). And, to answer your claim that they were His Sheep, it depends on what you mean. If you mean that they were the ones called who would eventually be saved, or the ones who God "shall call" in the future then I agree. If you mean that they were already saved from eternity or before they repented and believed then that is totally wrong. Verse 39 says that "the promise is to you, to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Verse 41 says that "those that gladly received his word were baptized". Which brings to mind a couple of points. One, we notice that you are not saved until you respond and "receive" the gospel. The average old fashioned evangelical is completely correct when they say that you must receive Christ and you receive him into your heart. That is the only way to be saved. Anyone saying anything else has a false gospel. Two, this message was truly "offered" to everyone in a real way. Three, there is a definite "calling" or drawing as stated in the OP which we are not told here whether it can be resisted but we are told it is essential. This leaves room for one to be an evangelical of a mildly Calvinist persuasion in that there is clearly a need for an internal call. Any other system, either where the Holy Spirit is not involved in your coming to Christ because it's all up to your free will, or a system where you have no part to play in receiving Christ and you are saved before you believe is wrong.
     
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Never mind Dave.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lost my mojo, just got word of a death in the family...
     
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  16. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Ky. I deleted that last post. I guess it's still in your quote but still.
     
  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean by this but and how it relates to the drawing of God the Father used only once in all the Bible but I see now that it is school time where I will need to stamp out some ignorance. (you know I am using that word in a strict academic manner). It is not your fault, kyred. We will blame it on your teachers.

    First of all, John 6 has nothing to do with you and me except to teach us the transitions of God. For instance, in the gospels he is making himself known as the Father God. You remember what Jesus said; "he that has seen me has seen the Father."

    If the Jews had not known him as the Father then we gentiles would not have any opportunity to be saved. Why, you ask. Because, "salvation is of the Jews," so Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well (where the water comes out) in Jn 4.

    Break here and meditate.

    How many times in the NT does it say "to the Jew first and also to the Greek, or gentile?" The word "also" is an addition. God has always planned on showing mercy and salvation to gentiles through the Jews. God told Abraham, one of the three fathers of Israel the nation, that in his family shall all the families of the earth will be blessed. Isaac and Jacob were the other two fathers. Abrahams seed that would do the blessing did not appear in his family until Matt 1:1. He was killed by those he came to be the recipients of yhe blessing first. After this decision was made, blessing was off the table for them, at least for a while. Logic and reason: If he was to show grace to the families of the gentiles through the Jews, then the Jews must be blessed first. How hard is this to figure?

    Break here and meditate.

    So, the "house, or family" of Israel became desolate and Jesus said he would not commune with them until he eats it new in the kingdom of God. We keep reading after the cross and the physical family of Abraham rejected Jesus Christ. This makes them the rejecters as a family of Jesus Christ on both sides of the cross, before his resurrection and also after it. So what did he do? He blessed the gentiles through the small remnant of the Jews who believed in Jesus Christ. He would take this remnant as the foundation of a brand new family and when it was fully established, he would invite the gentiles in. This was important to God because he had arranged a marriage for his son. He intended for it to be a Jewish bride but they would not come, even though he said all things are now ready and sent his servants out with the message to come. So, instead of getting his wife from Judea, he had to go into the world and few proportionately would come. But his house (family) must be full. Each member of this family must be born into it by the Spirit of God. There is no other way to get into it. This has taken awhile to complete.

    Break right here and meditate;

    It does not matter how one looks at this age we are now in, it is in all cases full of "mystery." If one ignores that in his theological construct he might as well turn all the lights off and put a blanket over his head. What makes it a mystery age? It is a mystery age because it was not written in the OT scriptures except in typology that could never be discerned without the fulfillment of the events and a divine explanation. Nowhere in the OT was there any thing about the Jews and gentiles being born into one family and being equal in stature and inheritance. this family has an head, often referred to as the "householder." and his name is Jesus Christ and in Co 1:18 he is the beginning of the family and the first born in it. This family has a destiny to be glorified in bodies like the glorious body of the resurrected Jesus Christ and the inheritance of this family is in heaven where we are all joint heirs with Jesus Christ. This glorification is not as much the mystery as how and when it is accomplished.

    Break here and meditate for a while

    Everything about this family is new. It began on a new day, the day after the sabbath, the first day of a new week. Those who are in this family are made new creatures in Christ by a new birth. It has a New Testament in the blood of Christ. It is a new man with a destiny to live in the new Jerusalem in the New heaven where God makes all things new. The families of the earth will be blessed by the seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ but they will not be in this heavenly family that God is forming for his son now. The marriage supper of the Lamb is still in the future because the house is not full yet and the sixth day is not ended.

    Break here and meditate one last time

    Israel has been dead (death means separation) since the rejection of her King by the rulers of Israel and she has been buried since 70 AD. Time has not passed for her. She has been in the grave for two whole days as God counts days and we are nearing the beginning of the third day when at some point, very early in it, God, having raised her from the dead will give her his Spirit, who is eternal. After this bride of Christ, the church, are gathered together and taken out, then God will purge the earth of all rebels, including those of his own family of Jacob, and will purify them with fiery judgements, totaling seven, and he says when it is all done and he returns there will be few men left on the earth but they will all be saved. He will be King over all the earth and will reign for a thousand years over a realm who has chosen his rule, the glorified church reigning with him.


    The prophet says this to Israel;
    Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

    Revive means to give life to. Israel has been in the graves for 2 days as God counts time. The nation has been raised up without the spirit in 1948. They have not been given the Spirit as a collective yet, but they will at some point in the future.

    The former rain is in Acts 2. The latter rain will be in the day of the Lord. Rain is the symbol for the Spirit coming down from God out of heaven to give life to all who will drink..Re 22:17

    Meditate, kyred. There is nothing wrong with changing directions.
     
    #37 JD731, Aug 2, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2024
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Dave, I am not going to answer you point by point or by your two or three supporting scriptures for your argument. Suffice it to say that you are arguing a point that is not true according to the scriptures. God is appealing in John 6 to these Jews outwardly. He is appealing to them on the basis of their intellect, reason, and will. These men were all fully aware of the manna of the OT and the reason it was sent down from heaven, it was sent by God because they had no bread to keep them alive as they wandered in the wilderness. They must eat it every day because it was not eternal. It was for the physical. But God the Father did not send someone down from heaven to give Israel the spiritual and eternal bread that was to be eaten one time so they could live forever. Jesus Christ was the actual bread that the Father sent down from heaven, that if a man eat, he will live forever.

    Our Lord Jesus would get to the point that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood before this conversation ended. As a matter of fact, this comment is what ended the conversation. Jesus claimed he came down from heaven and that God was his Father. This is the sticky point in this John chapter 6.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    To believe this is a fundamental doctrine of the faith. The Father is drawing all Israel to his son as the manna from heaven. They must believe this doctrine of God in order to have eternal life. All who believe it is given the promise of eternal life.

    Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing (that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God) ye might have life through his name.

    The Father is drawing the Jews to Jesus by his prophetic words in the OT. Hence the mention of the manna and applying that prophecy to the person of Jesus Christ. There is no mention in John 6 of the Spirit of God. If you taught that it was he who was drawing you would have to make it up.

    Here is the only mention of the spirit in Jn 6 and it is not capitalized. It is a reference to the words of Jesus. It is defined in the verse. Believing his words gives life. That is what quickening means.

    Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    No one in that crowd, including the apostles, believed that Jesus Christ came to die for their sins, be buried, and rise from the dead. Eleven of the apostles did believe that his words were eternal life if they believed them.

    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    Dave, I say that one cannot make a doctrine out of what the scriptures don't say. The dynamics changed after the cross and resurrection and it was then that all men would be drawn by Jesus on the cross to himself, but not at the same time. Therefore it is the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ that draws them, which is words of a preacher. The door of faith was opened to Jews and gentiles at different times in the Acts.
     
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. God appeals to everyone that way, always. And the Reformers, even the High Calvinist ones like John Owen insisted on that point. The appeal of course will always be outward, usually with words, but sometimes with a witness of miracles, and so on. But yes, that is always involving our physical senses and rational understanding. But even looking at scripture just as accounts of events it should be obvious that more is going on when people respond to God than their own rational free will decision. And the "drawing" verses are clear, and the verses where men at various times in scripture appeal to God, knowing that there is something wrong with their wills. And then there are the verses indicating that men on their own tend to love darkness rather than light, be unable to comprehend the things of God, or consider it downright foolishness. The work on a person that comes before they respond is an enlightening, or a quickening, or a conviction of sin. The work is on their will. But the actions in response will always be at a rational, conscious level.
    Verses like the above are statements of doctrine. They must be viewed as saying exactly what they say - no more and no less. That does not say or imply that the Holy Spirit is or is not involved in someone believing, only that believing is what is required.
    That no one can come unless the Father draws him is what the scriptures do say. What you are putting forth requires one to disregard a lot of scripture that involves drawing, opening someone's eyes, all the abrupt conviction stories, even Paul's conversion. So you come on and act like you are going to refute the theology of all the Reformers, many of whom aren't even Calvinists. You haven't convinced me and I question the wisdom of you coming on with such a bold thread title. You did not and can not refute that verse's most obvious meaning, even with a tortured attempt to separate salvation for Jews and gentiles.

    I agree that there is a wide range of how we interpret the process of someone coming to Christ. Just looking at John chapter 3 will show you that something is going on more than a natural process of a man evaluating words and then by his own free will making an autonomous and completely independent decision to believe all this. Maybe that's why Jesus said you must be born again rather than you better sit down and figure all this out.
     
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  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong with the will, Dave, it is the heart that is at odds with God and is the precise reason that sinners are called upon to repent. Repentance is a verb and requires the will of man acting upon a command. It is repentance towards God, who is the offended party and faith in Jesus Christ, who is the one who has washed away our sins and in whose name we come. In John 6 God called on the Jews to repent and to believe in Jesus as the Christ, the son of God.

    This is an error of the Reformed. Men know right and wrong through their conscience whether they ever hear the gospel. But the word of God through the gospel forces a man to consider the consequences of his sin, which is what our Lord Jesus, who was sent by the Father to suffer our punishment on the cross, is forced to come face to face with. Those who willingly allow themselves to think about it and meditate on it will likely believe and come to God through Christ. Others will put it out of their mind and refuse to think about it because of repentance. Jesus our Lord said this;

    Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Jesus Christ put the whole responsibility on these unbelievers, who have been given the evidence of who he is, by John the Baptist, the voice of God from heaven, the miracles he did, and the OT scriptures.

    When you say the scriptures must be viewed as saying exactly what they say, the Reformed are not willing to do that. This is one thing I have against this system. Case in point;

    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Now if I asked you if you have ever seen the son you will have to answer no. But Jesus ministered in the boundaries of Judah and Israel for three and one half years and most if not all saw him at some point. Of course Paul never saw him but in addition to being an apostle, he is also a type of Israel believers when Christ returns and saves the nation. Therefore to be consistent with our doctrine we must understand that Israel only is being addressed here and this is not an eternal church doctrine that is being presented and established.

    The Calvinists and the Reformed will not believe the power of the word of God. In all places the nature of it is dealt with in scripture it is said to be alive. It is a living word. It is likened to the seed in the physical realm that is planted and brings forth another person. The seed is alive every time. If conception does not take place every time and produce fruit, it is not because of the seed. The properties in the physical and the spiritual are alike. The word of God is called "seed." The seed must goe into the body, the consciousness, through the ear. That is the reason the scriptures says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and how can they hear without a preacher. Jesus Christ is not present physically and we cannot see him now, but there is life in his word.

    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
    1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

    The gospel gives life and the written words gives maturity.
    3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.
     
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