Exodus 12:18

[37818]

Yes, it is.

This is because you are using lunar calculations when in the 1st century they used observation and reckoning.

Do you really not grasp the difference (exactly why we cannot know the exact date)????

So what is the best date you think can be reckoned from the New Testament for the crucifixion?

The earliest reckoned Julian date for the crucifixion is Friday April 7th 30 AD.

Sir Isaac Newton's commonly accepted Friday calculated date April 3, 33 AD.

(In the late 1990's,) The Thursday Julian date I had calculated was April 26 31 AD. Turned out to be the wrong Jewish Calendar month.

I deduced the Thursday in 1969.

So what date best fits the evidence?

 

[37818]

Sure.

It is SIMPLE - The original Hebrew calendar was based on visual observation - NOT calculation.

The history of the Jewish calendar is divided into three periods—the Biblical, the Talmudic, and the post-Talmudic.

The first is the OT calendar, and it rested purely on the observation of the sun and the moon. The only reckoning here was post exile as the Bablyonian influences on years (not months).

The second on observation and reckoning. This began around 200 AD (Rabbi Judah I).

The third relied entirely on reckoning (on calculations. This started with the calendar being fixed by Hillel II, but today's calculations are based on the more accurate 12th century model.

We are talking about the 1st century AD, when men would visually observe the moon and report to the leaders who would meet and verify, ultimately announcing the official start.

You simple cannot know when the moon was observed because you do not have that data.

Doesn't show anything. You have no time machine. What year? Per Mark 14:12-16 was the day before Mark 14:17. The crucifixion was that following day.

 

[37818]

Nevertheless the Jewish holy days of the Bible have not Biblically changed.

 

[Silverhair]

You known know nothing of the sort. 1 John 5:9-13.

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

Our New Testament is our primary evidence.

You said "if there can be no historical crucifixion, there can be no redemption and therefore no resurrection."

You continue to put forward your theory as to what day Christ was crucified on {wed, thur, fri etc} as if you have to know the day or how can we trust that Christ actually was crucified.

Thus my question for you,how do you present the gospel? It seems you continue to struggle with just trusting scripture as it is written.

Christ said the proof was how long not what day.
Mat 12:39 Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

You do remind me of Don Quixote but rather than windmills you tilt at day/dates. When you do your calculations do you use 24 hr. days or that part of a day can be called a day. What you count as a day will have a major effect on the day Christ was crucified and was raised and we can not forget when a day started and ended for the Jews.

Question, if you can not know the exact day/date does that cause you to question the reality of salvation through Christ Jesus?

 

[JonC]

Doesn't show anything. You have no time machine. What year? Per Mark 14:12-16 was the day before Mark 14:17. The crucifixion was that following day.

What year did the Hebrew Calendar change from observation?

In the late 3rd century AD with Hillel II. He is the father of the modern Hebrew Calender.

But after the Samaritan fires Rabbi Judah I began encouraging using astrology...but still no calculations. (the Samaritans set fires before the new year to obscure vision, which caused a few days delay in the month starting because no observation could be made of the moon). This would be around 190 AD.

We do know that Gamaliel II himself would go out and verify he could see the moon when messengers arrived stating it was visible (then they would meet and declare the new month). This was around 100 AD.



We do know that IF Jesus was crucified before the 3rd century AD then it is impossible to know the exact date. As far as I know, even centuries after the 3rd century we can't because while Hillel II did use mathametics it was not suitable to modern calculations.


Are you suggesting that the Crucifixion occurred AFTER the Jews changed to calculation rather than visual observation ?????

 

[37818]

Question, if you can not know the exact day/date does that cause you to question the reality of salvation through Christ Jesus?

Not at all. The New Testament is our primary evidence of the crucifixion, redemption and resurrection.

The earliest date claim is Julian 30 AD. Friday April 7th.

It was Sir Isaac Newton who calculated for a Friday April 3rd, 33 AD.

It was R A Torrey's book, Difficulties in the Bible, referring to Matthew 12:40 who made a case for a Wednesday crucifixion.

So in 1969 began a verse by verse study. Friday or Wednesday?

 

[JonC]

So what is the best date you think can be reckoned from the New Testament for the crucifixion?

The earliest reckoned Julian date for the crucifixion is Friday April 7th 30 AD.

Sir Isaac Newton's commonly accepted Friday calculated date April 3, 33 AD.

(In the late 1990's,) The Thursday Julian date I had calculated was April 26 31 AD. Turned out to be the wrong Jewish Calendar month.

I deduced the Thursday in 1969.

So what date best fits the evidence?

We can't reckon a date because a couple of days of obscured cloud coverage (even one day) would throw off where we would place Passover.


The best we can do is take the Sabbath and work backwards (Jesus was buried just before the Sabbath began). And that Sabbath was a "high Sabbath", so some holy day fell on that day.


The reason we have to work backwards is we know the Sabbath began at sundown on Friday evening but we cannot know any days working forward.

 

[JonC]

Nevertheless the Jewish holy days of the Bible have not Biblically changed.

This is true in relation to the days of the Hebrew month.

The issue comes in when themonth started a day or two after the moon was a sliver (like with the Samaritan fires). There is also a year when Gamaliel II responded to two messengers who saw the moon, but he didn't see it. The month couldn't begin simply based on the report of the messengers (the Counsel had to agree).

But once the month was set the holy days did follow in order.


Another problem is in reporting. People report what they experienced. It was common outside of Jerusalem to have a couple of passover meals (one while traveling) in case the month is announced prior to the travelers arrival. If on the outskirts of Jerusalem late afternoon you could have a sacrifice being killed and meal observed prior to the actual Passover.

Strange, huh. Today we'd just have somebody call and tell us, or use a Passover app.

 

[37818]

We can't reckon a date because a couple of days of obscured cloud coverage (even one day) would throw off where we would place Passover.


The best we can do is take the Sabbath and work backwards (Jesus was buried just before the Sabbath began). And that Sabbath was a "high Sabbath", so some holy day fell on that day.


The reason we have to work backwards is we know the Sabbath began at sundown on Friday evening but we cannot know any days working forward.

You evidently, it would seem, do not believe the same evidence in the same way I do.
John 12:1-12.
Mark 14:12.
Mark 14:17.
Mark 15:42-43.
Luke 24:20-21.

Jewish days of the week begin at sunset.

Roman named days of the week begin at midnight.

Unleavened bread the 7 days sunset beginning the 14th. Ending with sunset the 21st. 14-20.
7 days of unleavened bread are the command.

The Feast of unleavened bread 15-21.
Only 6 actual days of unleavened bread are commanded, per Deuteronomy 16:8.

 

[JonC]

You evidently, it would seem, do not believe the same evidence in the same way I do.
John 12:1-12.
Mark 14:12.
Mark 14:17.
Mark 15:42-43.
Luke 24:20-21.

Jewish days of the week begin at sunset.

Roman named days of the week begin at midnight.

Unleavened bread the 7 days sunset beginning the 14th. Ending with sunset the 21st. 14-20.
7 days of unleavened bread are the command.

The Feast of unleavened bread 15-21.
Only 6 actual days of unleavened bread are commanded, per Deuteronomy 16:8.

We may not believe the evidence in the same way.

I believe that the Jewish day begins at sundown (not sunset, but technically the end of sundown).

So, per my statement, I believe that the Jewish Sabbath begins at sundown prior to the Sabbath night.

I believe (I know you disagree, which is fine) that our days of the week (Julian Calendar) begin a moment after midnight (think "military time").

So I believe that Friday at the moment the sun has gone down begins the Jewish Sabbath.

I get you disagree but think about the reason the Jews start the day of the week at sundown:



The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Genesis 1:2-5)

What was one day? Night and Day. Dark and light. One day.

If you are beginning your dates at sunrise then they will always be off.



Regarding counting, this is also why a partial night-day counts as a day. Say it is Monday afternoon. From Monday afternoon to 11 pm Tuesday is 2 days (not by our counting, but by Jewish reckoning of days).

If a Jew were informed at twilight a loved one had died, for example, that partial day counts as the first full day of shiva.

We see this with Esther's fast as well (Esther 4).

Esther fasted for 3 days and 3 nights. But by our counting she fasted 1 full day, an evening and a morning.


My point is you cannot simply impose our days and reckoning onto the ancient Hebrews.

 

[JonC]

@37818 ,

It appears that there may be things you need to consider when working out your timeline. I think this will help:

1. The 1st century Hebrew Calendar utilized observation per God's instruction in Deuteronomy. So we cannot know exactly what date 1 Nisan began in the 1st century.

2. The Jewish day of the week began at sundown. You can't start in the morning. The Sabbath started at sundown prior to the morning of the Sabbath.

3. Partial days and partial nights were reckoned as a day and night. Think "night-day".

Esther fasted for 3 days and nights. But she started the fast on one day, fasted one day and night, and ended the fast the next morning.

Scripture states she fasted 3 days and nights and describes this as a day, a night and a day, and a night (we'd say "1 full day").

 

[37818]

A Look at the Jewish Year.

Video about 14 minutes.

 

[37818]

@37818 ,

It appears that there may be things you need to consider when working out your timeline. I think this will help:

1. The 1st century Hebrew Calendar utilized observation per God's instruction in Deuteronomy. So we cannot know exactly what date 1 Nisan began in the 1st century.

2. The Jewish day of the week began at sundown. You can't start in the morning. The Sabbath started at sundown prior to the morning of the Sabbath.

3. Partial days and partial nights were reckoned as a day and night. Think "night-day".

Esther fasted for 3 days and nights. But she started the fast on one day, fasted one day and night, and ended the fast the next morning.

Scripture states she fasted 3 days and nights and describes this as a day, a night and a day, and a night (we'd say "1 full day").

You evidently, it would seem, do not believe the same evidence in the same way I do.
John 12:1-12.
Mark 14:12.
Mark 14:17.
Mark 15:42-43.
Luke 24:20-21.

Jewish days of the week begin at sunset.

Roman named days of the week begin at midnight.

Unleavened bread the 7 days sunset beginning the 14th. Ending with sunset the 21st. 14-20.
7 days of unleavened bread are the command.

The Feast of unleavened bread 15-21.
Only 6 actual days of unleavened bread are commanded, per Deuteronomy 16:8.

 

[JonC]

...

I don't see the difference.

You say we don't believe the same and insist you believe the Jewish day starts at sunset as opposed to me saying it starts at sundown.

What do you believe is the difference between sunset and sundown?


I think our disagreement is in which calendar to use.

I believe we should use the Biblical calendar (observation of the moon) where you believe we should use the post-Talmudic calendar (calculation of lunar cycles).

Obviously the post-Talmudic (calculation) is more accurate than the Biblical calendar (visual observation).

But we have to ask which one the 1st century Jews used. I believe they used the Biblical calendar because the Post-Talmudic calendar came about much later.

 

[37818]

You say we don't believe the same and insist you believe the Jewish day starts at sunset as opposed to me saying it starts at sundown.

What do you believe is the difference between sunset and sundown?

I made no such distinction. Sunset and sundown are the very same thing.

 

[Silverhair]

Not at all. The New Testament is our primary evidence of the crucifixion, redemption and resurrection.

The earliest date claim is Julian 30 AD. Friday April 7th.

It was Sir Isaac Newton who calculated for a Friday April 3rd, 33 AD.

It was R A Torrey's book, Difficulties in the Bible, referring to Matthew 12:40 who made a case for a Wednesday crucifixion.

So in 1969 began a verse by verse study. Friday or Wednesday?

But since you can not know for certain which day or date you are just trying to catch smoke.

You can not be certain how they determined what they considered a day. It could be 24 hrs. or even as little as 1 hr. That is why it is not possible to know for certain on what day or date Christ was crucified. And we have not even looked at the possibility of a high holy day being thrown into the mix.

You say the bible is your primary source, that being said then why are you so fixated on having to know the day/date. If the Holy Spirit did not see fit to make it clear then God must not consider it essential.

 

[JonC]

I made no such distinction. Sunset and sundown are the very same thing.

Then I have no idea about your objection that the Jewish Sabbath begins on our Friday at sundown.

 

[37818]

But since you can not know for certain which day or date you are just trying to catch smoke.

You can not be certain how they determined what they considered a day. It could be 24 hrs. or even as little as 1 hr. That is why it is not possible to know for certain on what day or date Christ was crucified. And we have not even looked at the possibility of a high holy day being thrown into the mix.

You say the bible is your primary source, that being said then why are you so fixated on having to know the day/date. If the Holy Spirit did not see fit to make it clear then God must not consider it essential.

But I do believe I know.

What the New Testament teaches about salvation and Christ being resurrected are essential.

Where did the 30 AD year come from? Re: typical Friday April 7 Julian date?

 

[37818]

Then I have no idea about your objection that the Jewish Sabbath begins on our Friday at sundown.

You are not making sense. The Jewish 7th Sabbath begins on Friday at sundown. The Day of Preparation begins on Thursday at sundown.

 

[percho]

What does the Holy Spirit tell us took place the year Jesus died, from the killing of the passover lamb in the afternoon of the 14th of Nissan to early morning, around day brake, the 18th of Nissan?

Luke 23:56 and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

Did someone, [the women V 55] prepare spices and then rest the sabbath? Where did they get these spices? When did they get these spices?

Mark 16:1 YLT And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,

Does the Holy Spirit say the women bought the spices after the Sabbath, prepared the spices and then rested the Sabbath?


Yes or no? How can that be possible from afternoon of 14th of Nissan to early morning of 18th of Nissan the first day of the week? On what day of Nissan do you think the women bought the spices? What do you think, the Holy Spirit thinks?

If there is a Julian date that would agree with the above, that is the date I would choose.