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Featured Why Confession?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Cathode, Oct 30, 2024 at 9:53 AM.

  1. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is.

    “But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

    9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

    Clear cut case.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Lol....jumping to another book to try and get support. You are funny....and desperate.

    No. Zacchaeus was not saying he'd do penance for sins in order to gain grace. He is expressing repentance, not self-punishment.

    There are no passages in Scripture that speak of penance. Absolutely none, except perhaps the pagan attempt to gain grace by works.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Cathode ,

    Your twisting of Scrioture in an attempt to justify Roman Catholic doctrine is silky. As a Catholic you hold the men over you (over your "church") as your authority. They tell you what to believe and you go to the Bible to try and support that faith.

    You found a man being dunked seven times in the river to be a "clear cut" case for the Catholic use of holy water.

    Things like this is why nobody can take you seriously when it comes to God's Word. You lack discernment when it comes to the Bible. You start with a belief and then try to justify it with Scripture (you have it backwards).

    BUT you are in a position to say what you do believe. You are in a position to explain your view of the Eucharist, of penance, of holy water, etc. You just are worthless when it comes to Scripture. And that is fine. As a Catholic you have a different authority for your doctrine. That is what you should address, not Scripture.
     
    #43 JonC, Oct 31, 2024 at 7:09 PM
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2024 at 7:16 PM
  4. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Forgiveness is a grace, if we confess.

    Restitution is a sign of repentance, in Zacchaeus’ case he imposed it on himself, a harsh one, acknowledging that he cheated people.

    And he did gain Grace, by the acknowledgement of the Lord of his forgiveness.

    Clear cut case.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Forgiveness is a grace.

    But we are talking about penance.

    You already stated that Catholics abandoned God's instruction as practiced in the early church because Catholics thought it was embarrassing.

    Penance has nothing to do with actual forgiveness and Cathokic confession has nothing to do with Biblical confession.

    Catholicism is an amalgamation of Christianity and paganism.
     
  6. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that you have been alienated from the ancient Apostolic understanding of Scripture.
    You have been accustomed to the new human founded interpretive traditions, which vary even among themselves, never objectively settled in interpretation or doctrine.
    Luther and Calvin being lawyers imbued their whole enterprise with legalism and legalisms opinions of scripture, not the truth of Scripture.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. The Catholic Church was created long after the Apostles had died. God's Word is eternal.

    You still don't understand. Catholic doctrines like penance, holy water, Catholic priests, Catholic Confession.....these are all foreign to Scripture.

    It has nothing to do with interpretation. What you have been doing has nothing to do with interpretation.

    You have a faith and then look to the Bible for support of that faith. You see a man being dunked in a river seven times and remaining unclean until later as supporting holy water, Paul disciplining the flesh so as not to sin as penance.

    That is NOT interpretation. That is desperation.

    That said, I agree about Calvin (not Luther as you mistepresent his background and thought process....but I believe Luther was wrong as well). Calvin and Luther kept too much Roman Catholicism in their doctrine (especially Calvin).
     
  8. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    You are pounding the table not the facts.

    These are clear scriptural examples.

    I think you would deny anything a Catholic told you, because it was a Catholic telling you.

    “Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, ‘neither without nor within;’ possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

    “In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

    “For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.'” Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).
     
  9. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Catholics had this understanding long before Protestantism or Baptists existed, conforming scripture to their doctrines and opinions was their opening act.

    They thought they were guided from on high, but you demonstrate that they were kidding themselves. Bible alonism is just ever changing human opinions and doctrines.
     
  10. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    It was the Catholic Church that preserved the scriptures and determined and assembled the first Canon itself. That’s what it does, it canonises things.

    Knowingly or unknowingly we all trust the God guided Authority of the Catholic Church that did that.

    Every book in your bible and mine was determined by the Catholic Church guided by God.

    I simply let the Catholic Church explain the meaning of Her Book.

    The Bible didn’t come from Protestantism or Baptist’s, they had nothing to do with the Bible, it’s preservation or determining, why would anyone treat their opinions of Scripture as authoritive. Especially as they don’t even agree amongst themselves as to what it means, and no doctrine is settled among them from all their conflicting interpretations of the same scripture.
     
  11. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

    Confession makes us righteous, and is the passing through the Faithful Gate to Heaven.

    “All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).
     
  12. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Jesus established the Apostolic Authority to forgive and retain sin so that by confession we could know that we made righteous on earth before the eyes of Heaven.

    Paul judged the man forgiven on earth, before the presence of Christ in Heaven.

    Serious sin, mortal sin, not only cuts us off from Christian fellowship as with Paul’s expulsion of the man from the community. It cuts us off from God and the life of Grace.

    Those with mortal sin need to confess to an Apostolic Successor who is an ambassador of Christ, who has the authority to bind and loose, to forgive and retain sin in His Name.
     
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