The Birth of Israel

[xlsdraw]

I am already humble. While there is no difference between Jew and Gentile the Jews and me included are Adonai's chosen people. You or anyone else will not change that, because it is an everlasting covenant as are all the covenants in the Tanakh which are still in force.
I'm in no need of instruction from a stranger.
I have an extensive Messianic library in my home which I study and pray on Shabbat our
commanded day of rest. Besides I downstream LoveIsrael with Baruch Korman which I financially support. I'm also a member of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America and the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations. I worship at the Baptist church on Sunday and then come home and work usually mowing my yard and trimming my rose bushes.
You sound like a "Replacement Theology" person. I despise Replacement Theology.
The Church has not replaced Israel as the apple of G_ds eye.
Shalom Aleichem

You demonstrate your absence of discernment again. Clinging to the perpetual error of the Jews. Pride.

I am a staunch opponent of ALL forms of Replacement Theology. I am a staunch supporter of Israel and scriptural Zionism.

Simple question.

Which is greater Faith, Faith Alone or Faith plus Signs?

Hint: Jesus addressed this with Thomas.

 

[kyredneck]

I am a staunch opponent of ALL forms of Replacement Theology.

If this is not being 'replaced' then I don't understand the meaning of the word:

 

[Rye]

The Bible is a Jewish book and every writer was Jewish.

You can't make that claim with absolute certainty. It is debatable as to whether or not Luke was a Gentile.

 

[xlsdraw]

If this is not being 'replaced' then I don't understand the meaning of the word:

Your error, as is also the OP's, is your perception of rivalry between Israel and the Church. There is no rivalry. The Church has a role in God's plan, and Israel has a role in God's plan. And the roles are substantially different. Neither could ever do the role of the other, and neither should want to.

It is foolishness to think that the Church, or anything else, replaced the role of Israel.

 

[David Koberstein]

You can't make that claim with absolute certainty. It is debatable as to whether or not Luke was a Gentile.

Yes I can make that claim with absolute certainly. Luke might be up for debate. Many believe he was a Jewish convert.
Shalom

 

[xlsdraw]

Yes I can make that claim with absolute certainly. Luke might be up for debate. Many believe he was a Jewish convert.
Shalom

Still hung up on the possessiveness of your fleshly heritage. The Bible is God's Word, not mens. ALL Glory is God's. God chose the instrument through which God's Word would be recorded. Just as you or I choose a pen to write a letter. The Glory is not in the instrument.

If Nicodemus had wherewith to glory, he wouldn't have come to Jesus by the cover of night.

 

[David Koberstein]

Still hung up on the possessiveness of your fleshly heritage. The Bible is God's Word, not mens. ALL Glory is God's. God chose the instrument through which God's Word would be recorded. Just as you or I choose a pen to write a letter. The Glory is not in the instrument.

If Nicodemus had wherewith to glory, he wouldn't have come to Jesus by the cover of night.

I am not hung up on anything. God chose the Jewish people for His purpose of recording His Word and bringing Messiah into this world through a Jewish virgin.
For centuries the Jewishness has been stripped from the Gospels. Christianity is a Jewish faith. Christianity was born out of Judaism not the other way around. If there was no Judaism there would be no Christianity.
Shalom

 

[kyredneck]

Your error, as is also the OP's, is your perception of rivalry between Israel and the Church. There is no rivalry.

Your error is that there now is no 'rivalry', and I never said there was.

Type/antitype:
Just as the House of David prevailed against the animosity of the House of Saul, even so the House of Christ (the Church) prevailed over the animosity of the Jews. Just as Saul came to a violent end by suicide, so that generation of Jews that murdered Christ came to a violent end by suicide (civil war).

1st Samuel Chapter 15

26​	And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee; for thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, and Jehovah hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27​	And as Samuel turned about to go away, Saul laid hold upon the skirt of his robe, and it rent.
28​	And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.

Matthew Chapter 21

40​	When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41​	They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42​	Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43​	Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44​	And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45​	And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[Rye]

Yes I can make that claim with absolute certainly. Luke might be up for debate. Many believe he was a Jewish convert.
Shalom

You may believe that and be absolutely certain about it. Others, like myself, see scriptural evidence that strongly suggests that he was not of the circumcision.

 

[David Koberstein]

Your error is that there now is no 'rivalry', and I never said there was.

Type/antitype:
Just as the House of David prevailed against the animosity of the House of Saul, even so the House of Christ (the Church) prevailed over the animosity of the Jews. Just as Saul came to a violent end by suicide, so that generation of Jews that murdered Christ came to a violent end by suicide (civil war).

1st Samuel Chapter 15

26​	And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee; for thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, and Jehovah hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27​	And as Samuel turned about to go away, Saul laid hold upon the skirt of his robe, and it rent.
28​	And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.

Matthew Chapter 21

40​	When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41​	They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42​	Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43​	Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44​	And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45​	And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The generation of Jews did not murder Christ. This sounds like the antisemitism that Hitler and Martin Luther was selling.
Shalom

 

[kyredneck]

The generation of Jews did not murder Christ.

The Spirit makes no bones about who killed Christ:

This sounds like the antisemitism that Hitler and Martin Luther was selling.

...and this is soooo typical. You're unable to dispute the facts so you resort to ad hominem.

Revelation Chapter 18

24​	And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

 

[David Koberstein]

The Spirit makes no bones about who killed Christ:



...and this is soooo typical. You're unable to dispute the facts so you resort to ad hominem.

I just did dispute the so called facts. Read your history and learn.
Shalom

 

[kyredneck]

I just did dispute the so called facts.

These facts?

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

YOU MIGHT HAVE DISPUTED PLAIN SCRIPTURE BUT YOU DEFINITELY HAVE NOT REFUTED PLAIN SCRIPTURE.

 

[David Koberstein]

These facts?

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

YOU MIGHT HAVE DISPUTED PLAIN SCRIPTURE BUT YOU DEFINITELY HAVE NOT REFUTED PLAIN SCRIPTURE.

The Jews did not murder Christ. Nowhere is that found in Scripture. Antisemitism is not a good look for you.
Shalom

 

[kyredneck]

Nowhere is that found in Scripture.

Denial does not make those scriptures go away.

 

[David Koberstein]

Denial does not make those scriptures go away.

There is no Scriptures to support your false narrative that the Jews murdered Christ.
Shalom

 

[kyredneck]

There is no Scriptures to support your false narrative that the Jews murdered Christ.
Shalom

<sigh>...not my narrative, but the narrative of Christ, Peter, Stephen, John, Paul, and 'the people' themselves. Again, your obstinance and denial of their narrative doesn't make it go away.

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 23:
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

[kyredneck]

Again another false narrative based on false interpretation of Scripture.
Shalom

Again, your obstinance and denial of their narrative doesn't make it go away. It's still there, and always will be.

 

[kyredneck]

The only narrative is your false antisemitic narrative. It was never there and never will be.
I usually don't associate with people spreading antisemitism. So tread lightly.
Shalom

...and this is soooo typical. You're unable to refute the facts, so you resort to ad hominem.

 

[Rye]

The generation of Jews did not murder Christ.

You don’t really believe in the New Testament, do you? Just be honest.