Continuation - The Church Without The Pre-Trib Rapture Is Not Good News

[JD731]

Yes it is.
Yet, The information is still for all believers, since all those who are alive at that time will see the things the Lord described and be waiting for Him.

Yes, there is.

His wrath will not be poured out on the saved who are alive in Israel when these events take place.

I recall you saying that Jesus was speaking to us, meaning you and me, when he said the words in this chapter 24. He talked about our temple in Jerusalem being eliminated and our signs of the end of the world, and our enduring to the end in order to be saved, our escape from Judaea and Jerusalem and instructed us to pray it would not be on the sabbath day and he speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, which is in another temple etc. etc.

The Lord did.
Who taught you, contrary to what these passages say, that there will be a Pre-trbulational Rapture, when these explicitly state that the angels will gather together His elect after the Tribulation?

Please read Matthew 24:29-31 again and note the timing, sir.

These verses?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

"Those days" are the days between V 8 and V 29, which are the first 3 1/2 years of the total 7 years of this time period. In the middle of these 7 years the lights will go out and there will be no one else saved from this point.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of him coming is not immediately after the tribulation of those first days but it is after them when this transition takes place. This is the wrath of God. The end will be when Jesus appears in the heavens to rescue the remnant of Israel.
and gather them to the land of Israel.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect here are the elect, the saved, of Israel. The angels will gather them from all places where they were driven.

There are two parts, evenly divided with 1260 days each. The first is the tribulation. The second 1260 days is called great tribulation, the day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble.

More on that later.

You are much too smart to allow yourself to be deceived into believing something that is senseless in the manner they are presented.

 

[37818]

My statement is true, 37818.

Matthew 15:22-28.

 

[Dave G]

I recall you saying that Jesus was speaking to us, meaning you and me, when he said the words in this chapter 24.

The passage is describing the Lord speaking to His disciples, including the 12. The information is for all believers to plan by.
You do see that, do you not?

"Those days" are the days between V 8 and V 29, which are the first 3 1/2 years of the total 7 years of this time period. In the middle of these 7 years the lights will go out and there will be no one else saved from this point.

You really don't understand how salvation is accomplished, do you?
When the Tribulation begins, the last of God's Gentile elect will have been called..."the fullness of the Gentiles" will have come in.
Then the end will come.

But there will be some of God's people left alive at His coming.

The elect here are the elect, the saved, of Israel. The angels will gather them from all places where they were driven.

"His elect" are all of God's elect...both Jew and Gentile.
He will gather them from exactly where He said that He would...

" ...from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
From everywhere.

There are two parts, evenly divided with 1260 days each. The first is the tribulation. The second 1260 days is called great tribulation, the day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble.

The first part is largely quiet... a time of false peace and false prosperity.
The second part is the one we're focused on, which is the "Great Tribulation" of 3.5 years.

That said, I can see that you're not seeing the same things in the Scriptures that I am, JD...
Time for me to walk away from this, and wish you well.

 

[JD731]

Matthew 15:22-28

What verse in this passage do you want me to see, 37818?

This one?

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Can the above be true? I think your answer, if you chose to give one, would be no, he is sent to gentiles too, in spite of the fact that it was God the Father who sent him and he gave no instructions regarding the possibility that a gentile or two would come to him. Jesus Christ is a gracious God but her coming to him did not identify her as a sheep. Jesus himself classified her as a dog.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Speaking of his first coming to this earth, Jesus said this;

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The question now is, who is lost? What saith the scriptures?

Did you know the scriptures never says the gentiles are lost? Not even once. They are not lost sheep and they are not "lost" dogs. How do I know this? Because the apostle Paul, who was chosen by God to be the apostle to the gentiles and to preach to them never used the word "lost" in his thirteen (13) letters to us except for 2 Cor 4:3 when the context is clearly the Jews. The word "lost" is never a description for an unsaved gentile in the scriptures.

I am not going to give you the answer to when the gentiles were grafted in to the good Olive Tree in this post but let's just say they were not grafted in during the days of Matthew 24 or Mark 13. It was after this. It is the Olive tree the gentiles are grafted into, not the fig tree or the vine.

Did you know, 37818, that Paul never used the word sheep as a description of a gentile in his 13 letters? He used the term only once in his letters and that was in Romans 8 and it is clearly in the context of Israel.

In spite of all this, the church, the body of Christ, that is being formed in this age of grace, has a Jewish foundation but a gentile character. It has a beginning in the New Testament and a completion in the beginning of the day of the Lord. One must recognize that it, the church, is a separate entity than the nation and family that was raised up by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob though there would have never been a church without an Israel. God works all his purposes out through the Jews.

Think about these things and believe the words. The church of Jesus Christ is a heavenly family that will be delivered from the wrath to come by what many call the rapture. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures and will be realized very soon.

 

[37818]

What verse in this passage do you want me to see, 37818?

This one?

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Can the above be true? I think your answer, if you chose to give one, would be no, he is sent to gentiles too, in spite of the fact that it was God the Father who sent him and he gave no instructions regarding the possibility that a gentile or two would come to him. Jesus Christ is a gracious God but her coming to him did not identify her as a sheep. Jesus himself classified her as a dog.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Speaking of his first coming to this earth, Jesus said this;

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The question now is, who is lost? What saith the scriptures?

Did you know the scriptures never says the gentiles are lost? Not even once. They are not lost sheep and they are not "lost" dogs. How do I know this? Because the apostle Paul, who was chosen by God to be the apostle to the gentiles and to preach to them never used the word "lost" in his thirteen (13) letters to us except for 2 Cor 4:3 when the context is clearly the Jews. The word "lost" is never a description for an unsaved gentile in the scriptures.

I am not going to give you the answer to when the gentiles were grafted in to the good Olive Tree in this post but let's just say they were not grafted in during the days of Matthew 24 or Mark 13. It was after this. It is the Olive tree the gentiles are grafted into, not the fig tree or the vine.

Did you know, 37818, that Paul never used the word sheep as a description of a gentile in his 13 letters? He used the term only once in his letters and that was in Romans 8 and it is clearly in the context of Israel.

In spite of all this, the church, the body of Christ, that is being formed in this age of grace, has a Jewish foundation but a gentile character. It has a beginning in the New Testament and a completion in the beginning of the day of the Lord. One must recognize that it, the church, is a separate entity than the nation and family that was raised up by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob though there would have never been a church without an Israel. God works all his purposes out through the Jews.

Think about these things and believe the words. The church of Jesus Christ is a heavenly family that will be delivered from the wrath to come by what many call the rapture. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures and will be realized very soon.

Matthew 15:22-28

 

[Marooncat79]

What about the Apostles and Christian Martyrs?

That seems to me to show that Xians indeed suffer tribulation.

 

[JD731]

The passage is describing the Lord speaking to His disciples, including the 12. The information is for all believers to plan by.
You do see that, do you not?

You really don't understand how salvation is accomplished, do you?
When the Tribulation begins, the last of God's Gentile elect will have been called..."the fullness of the Gentiles" will have come in.
Then the end will come.

This is what is actually said;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (not revealed anywheres else but here), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is spoken to gentiles in 58 AD when the epistle was written by Paul the apostle. Look here.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

So everything after this in the chapter is spoken to gentiles about Israel and the purpose of God in this age of their spiritual blindness. From Romans 7:1 thru Romans 11:12 Paul has spoken to Israel about what God is doing in this age during their blindness. Look!
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

If we follow God then we must pivot when he pivots or we will lose our way.

But there will be some of God's people left alive at His coming.

"His elect" are all of God's elect...both Jew and Gentile.
He will gather them from exactly where He said that He would...

" ...from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
From everywhere.

Thanks for your input on my pre-trib rapture thread.
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

This is the elect nation and family (house). The church of Jesus Christ is a family but not a nation but is birthed from both Israel and gentiles and is a new thing on the earth with it's own promises and destiny. The formation of the church does not eliminate Israel and the nations and all prophecies concerning them remains without being altered. Those in the church have been elected in a new family called the church, the body of Christ.

The first part is largely quiet... a time of false peace and false prosperity.
The second part is the one we're focused on, which is the "Great Tribulation" of 3.5 years.

That said, I can see that you're not seeing the same things in the Scriptures that I am, JD...
Time for me to walk away from this, and wish you well.

We do not agree because your theology is based on redefined terms that is not true to plain language and accepted meanings of words.

 

[JD731]

Matthew 15:22-28

The difference between Israel and gentiles during the days of the ministry of Jesus and during the following years we call the apostolic period, which ended in AD 70, is the miracles and signs. Jesus performed signs like healings, casting out devils, to confirm his claims that he is indeed the promised Messiah and he even rose from the dead. In other words, miracles and signs were employed to convince the Jews to believe and miracles were performed for gentiles because they believed in Jesus. After 70 AD there were no more signs and miracles because there was no more nation of Israel and all men on the earth were considered by God as gentles, all covenants between God and Israel being suspended because of her national death and burial.

Jesus is dealing now with mankind as the great high priest where he is making intercession for man and not as king. Think about that. He was the prophet of God when he came. Now he is the High Priest, soon he will be King of all the earth and in person on the earth. We see this high priesthood in John 12. Read it.

18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. (this will be at his resurrection)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

God will minister to gentiles because of the resurrection and in the absence of Jesus Christ in person. He is in the heavenly temple advocating for us there while the business of this age is working out.

He 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The woman in Matt 15 had her prayers answered because she believed first. Unlike the Jews, she had no promises beforehand.

 

[JD731]

9What about the Apostles and Christian Martyrs?

That seems to me to show that Xians indeed suffer tribulation.

One must differentiate from tribulation (trouble) and (THE) tribulation and the (GREAT) tribulation.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This following description seems like a special kind of tribulation. Tell me what you think;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The word "then" indicates a transition in tribulation from mere tribulation to great tribulation as a result of one incident,

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Serious tribulation was described up until verse 15 but after that not even Noah days could compete with the tribulation it will be so great.

Take a look at the tribulation before the great tribulation and understand that it is no picnic; Here are the verses that describes it.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Revelation divides these two tribulations, the beginning of sorrows and the great tribulation into two equal parts of 1260 days each with a time between them when the sun will be darkened and the moon will turn red like blood and will not give it's light.

This is the way I see this at this hour but I am not perfect and so I reserve the right to adjust my teaching if I am persuaded by right division of scripture and additional light from God if I find I have an error about something. Thankfully, the bride of Christ will be rescued from this awful time by what many call the rapture of the church. Praise God and the Lord Jesus Christ for his grace and mercy to us.

 

[JD731]

John 11: A Microcosm of the New Testament times.

A definition of Microcosm.
Small wonder that the oldest meaning of microcosm in our dictionary is “little world”: the word comes ultimately from the Greek phrase mikros kosmos, meaning “little universe.” That meaning can be applied to many a wee realm, as in “the microcosm of the atom,” but microcosm was originally used by medieval scholars specifically to refer to humans as miniature embodiments of the natural universe. Microcosm soon expanded to refer to places (such as neighborhoods or other communities) thought to embody at a small scale characteristics of larger places, and later to anything serving as an apt representation of something bigger—as when Arthur C. Clarke, famed author of much fiction and nonfiction set in the cosmos, noted that “a sunken ship is a microcosm of the civilization that launched it.” Definition of MICROCOSM

Martha - The church of Jesus Christ whom Jesus goes out to meet.
Mary - The remnant who endures to the end, represented in type by the Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road and born out of due time.
Lazarus - The resurrected and perfected nation of Israel from the dead.

Bethany - House of Figs
Bethpage - House of unripe Figs

All these wonderful truths are hidden in plain sight from the people who get their doctrines from the Reformed writers. There is so much more wonderful truth in this one chapter but I am not giving out any more here because no one believes it and even thinks it is foolish, further proof the Bible is true in it's prophecies.