Continuation - The Church Without The Pre-Trib Rapture Is Not Good News

[JD731]

Yes it is.
Yet, The information is still for all believers, since all those who are alive at that time will see the things the Lord described and be waiting for Him.

Yes, there is.

His wrath will not be poured out on the saved who are alive in Israel when these events take place.

I recall you saying that Jesus was speaking to us, meaning you and me, when he said the words in this chapter 24. He talked about our temple in Jerusalem being eliminated and our signs of the end of the world, and our enduring to the end in order to be saved, our escape from Judaea and Jerusalem and instructed us to pray it would not be on the sabbath day and he speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, which is in another temple etc. etc.

The Lord did.
Who taught you, contrary to what these passages say, that there will be a Pre-trbulational Rapture, when these explicitly state that the angels will gather together His elect after the Tribulation?

Please read Matthew 24:29-31 again and note the timing, sir.

These verses?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

"Those days" are the days between V 8 and V 29, which are the first 3 1/2 years of the total 7 years of this time period. In the middle of these 7 years the lights will go out and there will be no one else saved from this point.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of him coming is not immediately after the tribulation of those first days but it is after them when this transition takes place. This is the wrath of God. The end will be when Jesus appears in the heavens to rescue the remnant of Israel.
and gather them to the land of Israel.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect here are the elect, the saved, of Israel. The angels will gather them from all places where they were driven.

There are two parts, evenly divided with 1260 days each. The first is the tribulation. The second 1260 days is called great tribulation, the day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble.

More on that later.

You are much too smart to allow yourself to be deceived into believing something that is senseless in the manner they are presented.

 

[37818]

My statement is true, 37818.

Matthew 15:22-28.

 

[Dave G]

I recall you saying that Jesus was speaking to us, meaning you and me, when he said the words in this chapter 24.

The passage is describing the Lord speaking to His disciples, including the 12. The information is for all believers to plan by.
You do see that, do you not?

"Those days" are the days between V 8 and V 29, which are the first 3 1/2 years of the total 7 years of this time period. In the middle of these 7 years the lights will go out and there will be no one else saved from this point.

You really don't understand how salvation is accomplished, do you?
When the Tribulation begins, the last of God's Gentile elect will have been called..."the fullness of the Gentiles" will have come in.
Then the end will come.

But there will be some of God's people left alive at His coming.

The elect here are the elect, the saved, of Israel. The angels will gather them from all places where they were driven.

"His elect" are all of God's elect...both Jew and Gentile.
He will gather them from exactly where He said that He would...

" ...from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
From everywhere.

There are two parts, evenly divided with 1260 days each. The first is the tribulation. The second 1260 days is called great tribulation, the day of the Lord, the time of Jacobs trouble.

The first part is largely quiet... a time of false peace and false prosperity.
The second part is the one we're focused on, which is the "Great Tribulation" of 3.5 years.

That said, I can see that you're not seeing the same things in the Scriptures that I am, JD...
Time for me to walk away from this, and wish you well.

 

[JD731]

Matthew 15:22-28

What verse in this passage do you want me to see, 37818?

This one?

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Can the above be true? I think your answer, if you chose to give one, would be no, he is sent to gentiles too, in spite of the fact that it was God the Father who sent him and he gave no instructions regarding the possibility that a gentile or two would come to him. Jesus Christ is a gracious God but her coming to him did not identify her as a sheep. Jesus himself classified her as a dog.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Speaking of his first coming to this earth, Jesus said this;

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The question now is, who is lost? What saith the scriptures?

Did you know the scriptures never says the gentiles are lost? Not even once. They are not lost sheep and they are not "lost" dogs. How do I know this? Because the apostle Paul, who was chosen by God to be the apostle to the gentiles and to preach to them never used the word "lost" in his thirteen (13) letters to us except for 2 Cor 4:3 when the context is clearly the Jews. The word "lost" is never a description for an unsaved gentile in the scriptures.

I am not going to give you the answer to when the gentiles were grafted in to the good Olive Tree in this post but let's just say they were not grafted in during the days of Matthew 24 or Mark 13. It was after this. It is the Olive tree the gentiles are grafted into, not the fig tree or the vine.

Did you know, 37818, that Paul never used the word sheep as a description of a gentile in his 13 letters? He used the term only once in his letters and that was in Romans 8 and it is clearly in the context of Israel.

In spite of all this, the church, the body of Christ, that is being formed in this age of grace, has a Jewish foundation but a gentile character. It has a beginning in the New Testament and a completion in the beginning of the day of the Lord. One must recognize that it, the church, is a separate entity than the nation and family that was raised up by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob though there would have never been a church without an Israel. God works all his purposes out through the Jews.

Think about these things and believe the words. The church of Jesus Christ is a heavenly family that will be delivered from the wrath to come by what many call the rapture. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures and will be realized very soon.

 

[37818]

What verse in this passage do you want me to see, 37818?

This one?

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Can the above be true? I think your answer, if you chose to give one, would be no, he is sent to gentiles too, in spite of the fact that it was God the Father who sent him and he gave no instructions regarding the possibility that a gentile or two would come to him. Jesus Christ is a gracious God but her coming to him did not identify her as a sheep. Jesus himself classified her as a dog.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Speaking of his first coming to this earth, Jesus said this;

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The question now is, who is lost? What saith the scriptures?

Did you know the scriptures never says the gentiles are lost? Not even once. They are not lost sheep and they are not "lost" dogs. How do I know this? Because the apostle Paul, who was chosen by God to be the apostle to the gentiles and to preach to them never used the word "lost" in his thirteen (13) letters to us except for 2 Cor 4:3 when the context is clearly the Jews. The word "lost" is never a description for an unsaved gentile in the scriptures.

I am not going to give you the answer to when the gentiles were grafted in to the good Olive Tree in this post but let's just say they were not grafted in during the days of Matthew 24 or Mark 13. It was after this. It is the Olive tree the gentiles are grafted into, not the fig tree or the vine.

Did you know, 37818, that Paul never used the word sheep as a description of a gentile in his 13 letters? He used the term only once in his letters and that was in Romans 8 and it is clearly in the context of Israel.

In spite of all this, the church, the body of Christ, that is being formed in this age of grace, has a Jewish foundation but a gentile character. It has a beginning in the New Testament and a completion in the beginning of the day of the Lord. One must recognize that it, the church, is a separate entity than the nation and family that was raised up by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob though there would have never been a church without an Israel. God works all his purposes out through the Jews.

Think about these things and believe the words. The church of Jesus Christ is a heavenly family that will be delivered from the wrath to come by what many call the rapture. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures and will be realized very soon.

Matthew 15:22-28

 

[Marooncat79]

What about the Apostles and Christian Martyrs?

That seems to me to show that Xians indeed suffer tribulation.

 

[JD731]

The passage is describing the Lord speaking to His disciples, including the 12. The information is for all believers to plan by.
You do see that, do you not?

You really don't understand how salvation is accomplished, do you?
When the Tribulation begins, the last of God's Gentile elect will have been called..."the fullness of the Gentiles" will have come in.
Then the end will come.

This is what is actually said;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (not revealed anywheres else but here), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is spoken to gentiles in 58 AD when the epistle was written by Paul the apostle. Look here.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

So everything after this in the chapter is spoken to gentiles about Israel and the purpose of God in this age of their spiritual blindness. From Romans 7:1 thru Romans 11:12 Paul has spoken to Israel about what God is doing in this age during their blindness. Look!
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

If we follow God then we must pivot when he pivots or we will lose our way.

But there will be some of God's people left alive at His coming.

"His elect" are all of God's elect...both Jew and Gentile.
He will gather them from exactly where He said that He would...

" ...from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
From everywhere.

Thanks for your input on my pre-trib rapture thread.
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

This is the elect nation and family (house). The church of Jesus Christ is a family but not a nation but is birthed from both Israel and gentiles and is a new thing on the earth with it's own promises and destiny. The formation of the church does not eliminate Israel and the nations and all prophecies concerning them remains without being altered. Those in the church have been elected in a new family called the church, the body of Christ.

The first part is largely quiet... a time of false peace and false prosperity.
The second part is the one we're focused on, which is the "Great Tribulation" of 3.5 years.

That said, I can see that you're not seeing the same things in the Scriptures that I am, JD...
Time for me to walk away from this, and wish you well.

We do not agree because your theology is based on redefined terms that is not true to plain language and accepted meanings of words.

 

[JD731]

Matthew 15:22-28

The difference between Israel and gentiles during the days of the ministry of Jesus and during the following years we call the apostolic period, which ended in AD 70, is the miracles and signs. Jesus performed signs like healings, casting out devils, to confirm his claims that he is indeed the promised Messiah and he even rose from the dead. In other words, miracles and signs were employed to convince the Jews to believe and miracles were performed for gentiles because they believed in Jesus. After 70 AD there were no more signs and miracles because there was no more nation of Israel and all men on the earth were considered by God as gentles, all covenants between God and Israel being suspended because of her national death and burial.

Jesus is dealing now with mankind as the great high priest where he is making intercession for man and not as king. Think about that. He was the prophet of God when he came. Now he is the High Priest, soon he will be King of all the earth and in person on the earth. We see this high priesthood in John 12. Read it.

18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. (this will be at his resurrection)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

God will minister to gentiles because of the resurrection and in the absence of Jesus Christ in person. He is in the heavenly temple advocating for us there while the business of this age is working out.

He 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The woman in Matt 15 had her prayers answered because she believed first. Unlike the Jews, she had no promises beforehand.

 

[JD731]

9What about the Apostles and Christian Martyrs?

That seems to me to show that Xians indeed suffer tribulation.

One must differentiate from tribulation (trouble) and (THE) tribulation and the (GREAT) tribulation.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This following description seems like a special kind of tribulation. Tell me what you think;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The word "then" indicates a transition in tribulation from mere tribulation to great tribulation as a result of one incident,

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Serious tribulation was described up until verse 15 but after that not even Noah days could compete with the tribulation it will be so great.

Take a look at the tribulation before the great tribulation and understand that it is no picnic; Here are the verses that describes it.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Revelation divides these two tribulations, the beginning of sorrows and the great tribulation into two equal parts of 1260 days each with a time between them when the sun will be darkened and the moon will turn red like blood and will not give it's light.

This is the way I see this at this hour but I am not perfect and so I reserve the right to adjust my teaching if I am persuaded by right division of scripture and additional light from God if I find I have an error about something. Thankfully, the bride of Christ will be rescued from this awful time by what many call the rapture of the church. Praise God and the Lord Jesus Christ for his grace and mercy to us.

 

[JD731]

John 11: A Microcosm of the New Testament times.

A definition of Microcosm.
Small wonder that the oldest meaning of microcosm in our dictionary is “little world”: the word comes ultimately from the Greek phrase mikros kosmos, meaning “little universe.” That meaning can be applied to many a wee realm, as in “the microcosm of the atom,” but microcosm was originally used by medieval scholars specifically to refer to humans as miniature embodiments of the natural universe. Microcosm soon expanded to refer to places (such as neighborhoods or other communities) thought to embody at a small scale characteristics of larger places, and later to anything serving as an apt representation of something bigger—as when Arthur C. Clarke, famed author of much fiction and nonfiction set in the cosmos, noted that “a sunken ship is a microcosm of the civilization that launched it.” Definition of MICROCOSM

Martha - The church of Jesus Christ whom Jesus goes out to meet.
Mary - The remnant who endures to the end, represented in type by the Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road and born out of due time.
Lazarus - The resurrected and perfected nation of Israel from the dead.

Bethany - House of Figs
Bethpage - House of unripe Figs

All these wonderful truths are hidden in plain sight from the people who get their doctrines from the Reformed writers. There is so much more wonderful truth in this one chapter but I am not giving out any more here because no one believes it and even thinks it is foolish, further proof the Bible is true in it's prophecies.

 

[JD731]

Gentlemen!

I have thought I will give some insight into how I know Martha, Mary, and Lazarus are representative types of, first the church of Jesus Christ, then the regenerated elect of Israel, and finally how Lazarus equals the resurrection and restitution of the nation. I could give lots of facts here but I will limit it and be very brief.

First, this story unfolds in chapter 11. It could not be in any other chapter. The number 11 represents Israel falling short of God's intention for them.

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 10:11 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. The number 11 is always the number for Israel falling short of the goal. When Jesus died at Calvary it was with one disciple short of the number he would have when he set up his kingdom. He must have 12.

This brings me to the number 12. This is the number for the perfect government of God. It is not by accident that Israel is made up of 12 tribes. That Jesus chose 12 apostles to rule in his kingdom of heaven government after the pattern of Moses who was a type of Christ. The number 12 is everywhere in his government.

The number 13 is the number for the transgressors. Count the letters in the word. Their transgression (13 letters) is to overstep God's authority. Many gentile kings place themselves as god. This number is associated with gentiles. The great apostle Paul was the 13th apostle, an additional apostle but not of the 12, but uniquely the apostle to the gentiles. He was commissioned as apostle in Acts 13 and he founded gentile churches and wrote 13 epistles as instruction to gentiles of how to please God. He mentioned the word "gentiles" in his letters a total of 42 times and the number 42 is in the scriptures 13 times.

The name Martha means - "she was rebellious"

Lu 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
Lu 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Lu 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Joh 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Joh 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Joh 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Joh 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Joh 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

AV-Martha 13; 13
Martha ="she was rebellious"
1) was the sister of Lazarus and Mary of Bethany

Transgressors are rebellious. Her name is connected to both the perfect government of God (12 verses) and the gentiles (13 times). The reason for this is because the church is built on a Jewish foundation but with a gentile character. This was no fluke nor was it incidental.

The name Mary = "their rebellion."

AV-Mary the mother of Jesus 19, Mary Magdalene 13, Mary the sister of Martha 11, Mary the mother of James 9, Mary the mother of John Mark 1, Mary of Rome 1; 54

Mary or Miriam = "their rebellion"

1) Mary the mother of Jesus
2) Mary Magdalene, a women from Magdala
3) Mary, the sister of Lazarus and Martha
4) Mary of Cleophas the mother of James the less
5) Mary the mother of John Mark, a sister of Barnabas
6) Mary, a Roman Christian who is greeted by Paul in Ro 16:6

The name of this Mary appears 11 times as she represents the saved and waiting and expectant Remnant who Jesus calls to himself as he returns to establish his earthly kingdom and who will populate that saved righteous nation with Jesus as King.

The name Lazarus - "whom God helps"
AV-Lazarus 11, Lazarus (the poor man) 4; 15

Lazarus = "whom God helps" (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)

1) an inhabitant of Bethany, beloved by Christ and raised from the dead by him
2) a very poor and wretched person to whom Jesus referred to in Lu 16:20-25

Lazarus is dead and in the tomb, wrapped in grave clothes when Jesus came to Bethany, the house of figs, the national symbol for the nation Israel. Israel is represented in Exodus 4 as the firstborn son of God and in this chapter he receives the new birth. He is raised and indwelt by the Spirit exactly as Jesus was.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

This is the inauguration of the kingdom with all 12 tribes present and saved. In verse 10 these 10 tribes are called children of God and to be a child of God requires a new birth.

One would expect if this is really a microcosm of the events of the end times then there would be proof with the number 12, the perfect government of God. Take a look.

Joh 12:1 ¶ Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Look what is the first thing that happened in John 12.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

This represents the marriage supper of the Lamb and all the principles were there.

This is just one of the reasons one must have the right Bible from God with the right numbers of words and names. One must not trifle with this greatest of all books and a man who understands the doctrines of God will believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church like is portrayed in John 11 with Jesus coming to Bethany for the sake of Lazarus and his sisters and Martha first going out to meet him.

I trust all reading this will examine their own hearts as we all are instructed to do and see that you are in the faith. It is not okay to deny the separate doctrines of the church. Before this denial becomes a reality many minds, other Bible truths must first be rejected. Jesus Christ is Lord and worthy of our praise and trust.

 

[David Lamb]

Gentlemen!

I have thought I will give some insight into how I know Martha, Mary, and Lazarus are representative types of, first the church of Jesus Christ, then the regenerated elect of Israel, and finally how Lazarus equals the resurrection and restitution of the nation. I could give lots of facts here but I will limit it and be very brief.

First, this story unfolds in chapter 11. It could not be in any other chapter. The number 11 represents Israel falling short of God's intention for them.

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 10:11 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. The number 11 is always the number for Israel falling short of the goal. When Jesus died at Calvary it was with one disciple short of the number he would have when he set up his kingdom. He must have 12.

This brings me to the number 12. This is the number for the perfect government of God. It is not by accident that Israel is made up of 12 tribes. That Jesus chose 12 apostles to rule in his kingdom of heaven government after the pattern of Moses who was a type of Christ. The number 12 is everywhere in his government.

The number 13 is the number for the transgressors. Count the letters in the word. Their transgression (13 letters) is to overstep God's authority. Many gentile kings place themselves as god. This number is associated with gentiles. The great apostle Paul was the 13th apostle, an additional apostle but not of the 12, but uniquely the apostle to the gentiles. He was commissioned as apostle in Acts 13 and he founded gentile churches and wrote 13 epistles as instruction to gentiles of how to please God. He mentioned the word "gentiles" in his letters a total of 42 times and the number 42 is in the scriptures 13 times.

The name Martha means - "she was rebellious"

Lu 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
Lu 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Lu 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Joh 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Joh 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
Joh 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Joh 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Joh 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

AV-Martha 13; 13
Martha ="she was rebellious"
1) was the sister of Lazarus and Mary of Bethany

Transgressors are rebellious. Her name is connected to both the perfect government of God (12 verses) and the gentiles (13 times). The reason for this is because the church is built on a Jewish foundation but with a gentile character. This was no fluke nor was it incidental.

The name Mary = "their rebellion."

AV-Mary the mother of Jesus 19, Mary Magdalene 13, Mary the sister of Martha 11, Mary the mother of James 9, Mary the mother of John Mark 1, Mary of Rome 1; 54

Mary or Miriam = "their rebellion"

1) Mary the mother of Jesus
2) Mary Magdalene, a women from Magdala
3) Mary, the sister of Lazarus and Martha
4) Mary of Cleophas the mother of James the less
5) Mary the mother of John Mark, a sister of Barnabas
6) Mary, a Roman Christian who is greeted by Paul in Ro 16:6

The name of this Mary appears 11 times as she represents the saved and waiting and expectant Remnant who Jesus calls to himself as he returns to establish his earthly kingdom and who will populate that saved righteous nation with Jesus as King.

The name Lazarus - "whom God helps"
AV-Lazarus 11, Lazarus (the poor man) 4; 15

Lazarus = "whom God helps" (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)

1) an inhabitant of Bethany, beloved by Christ and raised from the dead by him
2) a very poor and wretched person to whom Jesus referred to in Lu 16:20-25

Lazarus is dead and in the tomb, wrapped in grave clothes when Jesus came to Bethany, the house of figs, the national symbol for the nation Israel. Israel is represented in Exodus 4 as the firstborn son of God and in this chapter he receives the new birth. He is raised and indwelt by the Spirit exactly as Jesus was.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

This is the inauguration of the kingdom with all 12 tribes present and saved. In verse 10 these 10 tribes are called children of God and to be a child of God requires a new birth.

One would expect if this is really a microcosm of the events of the end times then there would be proof with the number 12, the perfect government of God. Take a look.

Joh 12:1 ¶ Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Look what is the first thing that happened in John 12.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

This represents the marriage supper of the Lamb and all the principles were there.

This is just one of the reasons one must have the right Bible from God with the right numbers of words and names. One must not trifle with this greatest of all books and a man who understands the doctrines of God will believe in a pre-trib rapture of the church like is portrayed in John 11 with Jesus coming to Bethany for the sake of Lazarus and his sisters and Martha first going out to meet him.

I trust all reading this will examine their own hearts as we all are instructed to do and see that you are in the faith. It is not okay to deny the separate doctrines of the church. Before this denial becomes a reality many minds, other Bible truths must first be rejected. Jesus Christ is Lord and worthy of our praise and trust.

I really don't think we can use the number of letters certain words contain in one language (English) as evidence for the meaning of the word. "Abusers," "dabbler," "sinners," and "ungodly" all have 7 letters in English, and 7 is the number of perfection in the bible, but no way do those words refer to perfect things.

 

[JD731]

I really don't think we can use the number of letters certain words contain in one language (English) as evidence for the meaning of the word. "Abusers," "dabbler," "sinners," and "ungodly" all have 7 letters in English, and 7 is the number of perfection in the bible, but no way do those words refer to perfect things.

I do not think I said the number 7 refers to perfect things. If I did it was a mistake on my parts because I know better. I I don't think I did.

This brings me to the number 12. This is the number for the perfect government of God. It is not by accident that Israel is made up of 12 tribes. That Jesus chose 12 apostles to rule in his kingdom of heaven government after the pattern of Moses who was a type of Christ. The number 12 is everywhere in his government.

The number 7 is the number for complete things. The number 12 represents something that is unattainable from the natural man, perfect government. God has given a visual to prove that by raising up his own nation to whom he made himself known in a relationship with him and to whom he gave his perfect law only to find this nation continually fell short. This was no surprise to God but it was his intention to demonstrate all the attributes of God concerning his rule over man through this people. one of those attributes is "his grace" to all men in all the world, which is on full display. Grace is God's operative principle of his divine dealing with men in this present age. This principle, like all the other principles of his divine dealing with men, it will come.

One way that men on this forum presents God to other men is that he saves men by this grace, his marvelous grace, after reconciling all men to himself by the sacrificial death of his own son and then raising him from the dead and in whom he paid the penalty for the sins of all men and took sin out of the equation while men live, only to have those who respond to him in faith being then put through the awful fury of his terrible wrath and to the same degree as he has for them who rejected him when the door of faith was open to all who would come to him for salvation. This is an unbelievable misrepresentation of who God is, that he would punish them who were obedient to him as if they are still rebels and sinners. Those who believed in Christ are born again. They are children of God. What kind of father is like that?

Two things will happen in the days of God's wrath, called the great day of his wrath. Number one, it is a furnace of fire with seven events that will purify those who are saved during that day, including the remnant of Israel, and number two, it will finally destroy all rebels from the earth with few men left. This will prepare the world for the government of God under the King of kings and Lord of lords who is to come.

I have a big problem with a religious groups that calls out men because they do not believe in the sovereignty of God in all things except the purity of his word and his ability to put it into any language he prefers with absolute authority. This argument we are given takes the sovereignty of God away and gives it completely over to men and their wisdom. Simple men can no longer be trusted to understand God but the authority of doctrines belongs to the wise men of this world who writes the theology books and who can understand the so called original languages. Few, if any of these men believes that Jesus Christ will deliver his body, whom he has formed in this age, (his bride, and whom he will marry) from the terrible wrath of the Father against rebels and sinners who refused his son.

This fact instructs me that church organizations that teach contrary to God's rapture of the church and deliverance from his wrath to come is doing a great disservice to simple trusting folks that believe them to be spokesmen for God to accurately teach his truths only to later find out they were deceived by this teaching. This is far more serious than we think.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(This is not the church which has been purified by the blood of Christ).

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(this is explained in the epistle named the Revelation)

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The wrath of God is mentioned as having come in the Revelation. It is there 13 times. Remember what I said about the number 13. It is the context of the transgressors. It is future for us now. It has not come at this day. When it does come Jesus said there ahs never been anything like it and never will in the future.

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I hope you will re-think the wonderful promises of the rapture of the church and teach others to look up and have hope.

 

[David Lamb]

I do not think I said the number 7 refers to perfect things. If I did it was a mistake on my parts because I know better. I I don't think I did.



The number 7 is the number for complete things. The number 12 represents something that is unattainable from the natural man, perfect government. God has given a visual to prove that by raising up his own nation to whom he made himself known in a relationship with him and to whom he gave his perfect law only to find this nation continually fell short. This was no surprise to God but it was his intention to demonstrate all the attributes of God concerning his rule over man through this people. one of those attributes is "his grace" to all men in all the world, which is on full display. Grace is God's operative principle of his divine dealing with men in this present age. This principle, like all the other principles of his divine dealing with men, it will come.

One way that men on this forum presents God to other men is that he saves men by this grace, his marvelous grace, after reconciling all men to himself by the sacrificial death of his own son and then raising him from the dead and in whom he paid the penalty for the sins of all men and took sin out of the equation while men live, only to have those who respond to him in faith being then put through the awful fury of his terrible wrath and to the same degree as he has for them who rejected him when the door of faith was open to all who would come to him for salvation. This is an unbelievable misrepresentation of who God is, that he would punish them who were obedient to him as if they are still rebels and sinners. Those who believed in Christ are born again. They are children of God. What kind of father is like that?

Two things will happen in the days of God's wrath, called the great day of his wrath. Number one, it is a furnace of fire with seven events that will purify those who are saved during that day, including the remnant of Israel, and number two, it will finally destroy all rebels from the earth with few men left. This will prepare the world for the government of God under the King of kings and Lord of lords who is to come.

I have a big problem with a religious groups that calls out men because they do not believe in the sovereignty of God in all things except the purity of his word and his ability to put it into any language he prefers with absolute authority. This argument we are given takes the sovereignty of God away and gives it completely over to men and their wisdom. Simple men can no longer be trusted to understand God but the authority of doctrines belongs to the wise men of this world who writes the theology books and who can understand the so called original languages. Few, if any of these men believes that Jesus Christ will deliver his body, whom he has formed in this age, (his bride, and whom he will marry) from the terrible wrath of the Father against rebels and sinners who refused his son.

This fact instructs me that church organizations that teach contrary to God's rapture of the church and deliverance from his wrath to come is doing a great disservice to simple trusting folks that believe them to be spokesmen for God to accurately teach his truths only to later find out they were deceived by this teaching. This is far more serious than we think.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(This is not the church which has been purified by the blood of Christ).

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(this is explained in the epistle named the Revelation)

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The wrath of God is mentioned as having come in the Revelation. It is there 13 times. Remember what I said about the number 13. It is the context of the transgressors. It is future for us now. It has not come at this day. When it does come Jesus said there ahs never been anything like it and never will in the future.

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I hope you will re-think the wonderful promises of the rapture of the church and teach others to look up and have hope.

Thank you for replying. It seems I should have said "completeness" instead of "perfection". (Having said that, I have often seen statements like this: "Seven often represents wholeness, completeness, or perfection in the Bible.") But whether perfection or completeness, my point still stands. You cannot take an English word, count the number of letters in it, and ascribe it a meaning or characteristic based on that number. For example, "lacking" and "missing" both have seven letters, but their meaning is the very antithesis of completeness.

 

[JD731]

You cannot take an English word, count the number of letters in it, and ascribe it a meaning or characteristic based on that number. For example, "lacking" and "missing" both have seven letters, but their meaning is the very antithesis of completeness.

How do you know this? Why choose the two words you chose as examples of your premise?

 

[JD731]

Some facts of the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ to Israel.

He exercised his ministry to that nation as " the perfect prophet" with Moses as the greater type.

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

The gospels accounts recorded his earthly ministry to Israel and what he said to them while he was here.

There are 89 chapters in the four (4) gospel accounts with 29 of them dedicated to the last 8 days of his ministry, exactly one third of the chapters.

The reason Jesus is being put on trial and crucified by his own nation is because he claimed he is the promised Christ of Israel and the Son of God and they rejected him as fulfilling that calling.

The Christ of God was coming in the Linage of David to be King over Israel and to sit on his throne as the everlasting King.

Lk 21:37 And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

At the time of these eight days, called Passion Week by some, Jesus had already been rejected and plans had been made by the Jewish rulers to put him to death.

The prophecies from this point on for Israel are contained in his parables that he gave in the temple during the first 4 days of this week. The Olivet discourse was delivered at the end of the fourth day after he had departed the temple for the final time and two days before he was crucified on Friday. The glory of the Lord departed and the house of Israel was left desolate. All these prophecies deals with Israel, then and in the future while the house was in desolation, which is during this age, post resurrection, until the day of the Lord, the seventh day of human history. The two days of his absence from the temple is the type for the two thousand years of this age. He will return to the Temple, described by Ezekiel, when Israel is reconciled to God in total at the return of Christ when he takes up his reign as King.

These near two thousand years in which Israel is driven from their geographical place is likened to the two days in which Jesus is in his grave with his resurrection early on the third day. See here about Israel:

Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Why must Jesus judge Israel? Because he cannot rule over rebels at heart and they must be destroyed first. Jesus can only rule over those whose heart is in tune with him.

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Jesus cursed the fig tree (the national symbol for Israel) on Monday of the week and it dried up but he promised it would leave out again with new life.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (Israel) according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works (of the law): otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained (the number 11 which is the number of this chapter and the number of falling short) that which he seeketh for (Israel sought for righteousness); but the election (the remnant) hath obtained it (righteousness), and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles (about the resulting situation), inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (which is a resurrection)?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

God broke off the natural branches because of their unbelief, not so he could graft unnatural branches in. Notice that the same ones that took their place also has the same warning. They will be broken off for the same reason. This is where we are in Christendom today. Israel and her promises are being denied by the modern church and the definition of the church and her promises are denied as well and the definition of the church is not even understood and taught in any kind of rational way.

This is why a denial of the rapture of the church is so dangerous. Men who refuse to believe what he has promised the church aught to repent and believe God.


Continued next post

 

[JD731]

Lk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Day 3 & 4
Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

What Jesus said about the dried up fig tree in his Olivet Discourse;

Continued

Matthew 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors


Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven (a term for this age after the resurrection) is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden (the Jews) to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers (AD 70), and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (gentiles)

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment (the garment of salvation, righteousness, provided by the King):
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.