Did God Depart from Jesus on the Cross?

[JonC]

On a now closed thread I stated that Jesus, the Son of God, suffered and died for our sins.

I can't recall how we got there, but somehow there was confusion about whether I believed God forsake Jesus to suffer and die for our sins.

It has come to my attention that there are a few ways that this is viewed.

Some believe this means God the Father separated from Jesus.
Some believe the Spirit left Jesus.
Some believe the Father and Son experienced a separation in their relationship.

I believe that Psalm 22 prophesied the cross.

This Psalm begins with the Servant crying out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
The Servant is suffering and crying out to God, trusting in God's faithfulness.
The Servant recounts how those of the past called out to God and God responded.
The Servant is suffering unjust

 

[Marooncat79]

And yet, God was in achrist reconciling the world unto Himself. II Cor 5

 

[JonC]

And yet, God was in achrist reconciling the world unto Himself. II Cor 5

Yes....God reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not ccounting man's trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Had God separated from Christ there could have been no reconciliation, no redemption, and no salvation.

Those other ideas are just the result of men being carried away by their own philosophy.

Sometimes people think too much and trust God too little.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes....God reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not ccounting man's trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Had God separated from Christ there could have been no reconciliation, no redemption, and no salvation.

Those other ideas are just the result of men being carried away by their own philosophy.

Sometimes people think too much and trust God too little.

Jesus experience at that time on the cross the separation and being forsaken as all lost sinners will in their judgment

 

[JesusFan]

On a now closed thread I stated that Jesus, the Son of God, suffered and died for our sins.

I can't recall how we got there, but somehow there was confusion about whether I believed God forsake Jesus to suffer and die for our sins.

It has come to my attention that there are a few ways that this is viewed.

Some believe this means God the Father separated from Jesus.
Some believe the Spirit left Jesus.
Some believe the Father and Son experienced a separation in their relationship.

I believe that Psalm 22 prophesied the cross.

This Psalm begins with the Servant crying out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
The Servant is suffering and crying out to God, trusting in God's faithfulness.
The Servant recounts how those of the past called out to God and God responded.
The Servant is suffering unjust

Point 3 is most accurate view . as Jesus never cease being Himself God, nor sinless, but did experience what all lost sinners will in their condemnation

 

[37818]

God cannot cease being God.
Psalm 139:7, Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

 

[Reynolds]

On a now closed thread I stated that Jesus, the Son of God, suffered and died for our sins.

I can't recall how we got there, but somehow there was confusion about whether I believed God forsake Jesus to suffer and die for our sins.

It has come to my attention that there are a few ways that this is viewed.

Some believe this means God the Father separated from Jesus.
Some believe the Spirit left Jesus.
Some believe the Father and Son experienced a separation in their relationship.

I believe that Psalm 22 prophesied the cross.

This Psalm begins with the Servant crying out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
The Servant is suffering and crying out to God, trusting in God's faithfulness.
The Servant recounts how those of the past called out to God and God responded.
The Servant is suffering unjust

I believe there was a moment in time where God The Father totally severed relationship with God the Son. Jesus suffered separation from The Father so that we would not have to suffer that separation.

 

[JonC]

I believe there was a moment in time where God The Father totally severed relationship with God the Son. Jesus suffered separation from The Father so that we would not have to suffer that separation.

That is a fairly common belief among Calvinists and Arminians. I have heard them preach that they belueve God turned His back on Jesus while Jesus suffered and died.

There are several reasons I do not belueve this the case. One is I nelieve Psalm 22 describes for us what would occur on the Cross. This Psalm begins (the very first verse) with "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?". But throughout the Psalm the writer is clear that God is ever present and the Servant forsaken to suffer, relying on God to at some point provide deliverance from the grave. I believe the Servant in the Psalm to be Christ.

Another reason I do not believe that is the saved are never destined for that separation which is a result of rejecting the Light. This is described as a final judgment at Judgment on the wicked who reject Jesus because they love their wickedness (their deeds are evil, they are not willing to turn away from themselves and they reject the Light).

A third readon is linked to the second. In the Binle we read we must die to the flesh, be refined as precious metal is refined - the impurities burned away. This is being made a new creation in Christ. When we stand before God our identity is Christ (the guilty part of is, the wivked part of us, no longer exists...at Judgment we will not longer are guilty.

There is no need for Christ to have experienced a separation from God if bring born of the Spirit is actually needed. If we are truely transformed into the image of Christ then any separation Christ woukd have experienced from God on the cross was meaningless suffering.

One other reason I'll mention is simply that this idea is not in the Bible itself.

Anyway, not arguing just explaining my reasoning. I don't care what another believes but I do like to understand how they arrived at their beliefs.


Are there any passages that would lead you to that belief and what is your overall thought process regarding this issue?

 

[JonC]

Point 3 is most accurate view . as Jesus never cease being Himself God, nor sinless, but did experience what all lost sinners will in their condemnation

Why would Jesus experienced what all lost sinners would experience in their condemnation?

They are condemned for rejecting the Light. They reject the Light because their deeds are evil.

So essentially you are saying that Jesus had to experience what they will experience even though they will still experience it. Seems like it woukd be pretty meaningless.

 

[Reynolds]

Point 3 is most accurate view . as Jesus never cease being Himself God, nor sinless, but did experience what all lost sinners will in their condemnation

He became sin. He never sinned, but He became guilty for every sin that the elect had ever committed or ever would commit.

 

[JesusFan]

That is a fairly common belief among Calvinists and Arminians. I have heard them preach that they belueve God turned His back on Jesus while Jesus suffered and died.

There are several reasons I do not belueve this the case. One is I nelieve Psalm 22 describes for us what would occur on the Cross. This Psalm begins (the very first verse) with "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?". But throughout the Psalm the writer is clear that God is ever present and the Servant forsaken to suffer, relying on God to at some point provide deliverance from the grave. I believe the Servant in the Psalm to be Christ.

Another reason I do not believe that is the saved are never destined for that separation which is a result of rejecting the Light. This is described as a final judgment at Judgment on the wicked who reject Jesus because they love their wickedness (their deeds are evil, they are not willing to turn away from themselves and they reject the Light).

A third readon is linked to the second. In the Binle we read we must die to the flesh, be refined as precious metal is refined - the impurities burned away. This is being made a new creation in Christ. When we stand before God our identity is Christ (the guilty part of is, the wivked part of us, no longer exists...at Judgment we will not longer are guilty.

There is no need for Christ to have experienced a separation from God if bring born of the Spirit is actually needed. If we are truely transformed into the image of Christ then any separation Christ woukd have experienced from God on the cross was meaningless suffering.

One other reason I'll mention is simply that this idea is not in the Bible itself.

Anyway, not arguing just explaining my reasoning. I don't care what another believes but I do like to understand how they arrived at their beliefs.


Are there any passages that would lead you to that belief and what is your overall thought process regarding this issue?

What is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire except totally separation from the Presence of God, no grace/mercy love nothing remaining?

Why would Jesus experienced what all lost sinners would experience in their condemnation?

They are condemned for rejecting the Light. They reject the Light because their deeds are evil.

So essentially you are saying that Jesus had to experience what they will experience even though they will still experience it. Seems like it woukd be pretty meaningless.

No, saying that in order for the father to be able to accept the sin bearing atonement of Jesus upon that Cross, Jesus would as the sin bearer experience for Himself what all lost sinners will in judgement and condemnation

He became sin. He never sinned, but He became guilty for every sin that the elect had ever committed or ever would commit.

He tasted in full the wrath and condemnation that we were entitled to get, save for Him taking it in our place

 

[JonC]

What is the Second Death in the Lake of Fire except totally separation from the Presence of God, no grace/mercy love nothing remaining?

What is it except separation? It is punishment. It is eternal. It is designed for Satan and his demons. It is based on the work of Jesus Christ when applied to men.

No, saying that in order for the father to be able to accept the sin bearing atonement of Jesus upon that Cross, Jesus would as the sin bearer experience for Himself what all lost sinners will in judgement and condemnation

I believe your philosophy here is flawed.

God is more powerful and sovereign than you are allowing.
Sin is more evil, more destructive than you are allowing.
Christ is more significant than you are allowing.
God's Word is more perfect and comolete than you are allowing.

Stick to Scripture and you'll do better.

 

[JesusFan]

What is it except separation? It is punishment. It is eternal. It is designed for Satan and his demons. It is based on the work of Jesus Christ when applied to men.

Its where one experiences the wrath of God towards them as the sinner themselves pays for the sin debt owed God now

 

[JesusFan]

I believe your philosophy here is flawed.

God is more powerful and sovereign than you are allowing.
Sin is more evil, more destructive than you are allowing.
Christ is more significant than you are allowing.
God's Word is more perfect and comolete than you are allowing.

Stick to Scripture and you'll do better.

What I gave here is the scripture response to just how and why the Holy Nature of God can be upheld while he justified wicked lost sinners like you and I once were

 

[JonC]

Its where one experiences the wrath of God towards them as the sinner themselves pays for the sin debt owed God now

Kinda.

This is the wrath we escape in Christ. And it is the judgment of God.

But "this is the condemnation, that Light has come into the world and men rejected the Light".

This "sin debt" is not in the Bible.

In the Bible it is appointed man once to die (sin produces death) and then the Judgment (which is either Christ or the Second death).

You are about 50% biblical and 50% philosophy.

 

[JesusFan]

Kinda.

This is the wrath we escape in Christ. And it is the judgment of God.

But "this is the condemnation, that Light has come into the world and men rejected the Light".

This "sin debt" is not in the Bible.

In the Bible it is appointed man once to die (sin produces death) and then the Judgment (which is either Christ or the Second death).

You are about 50% biblical and 50% philosophy.

The sinners who reject Jesus are being judged due to being law breakers before a Holy God, so indeed owe Him a payment

Not per Scripture.

Not per how YOU read and understand scripture

No. On that post you gave 100% philosophy.

You said in order for the father to be able to accept the sin bearing atonement of Jesus upon that Cross, Jesus would as the sin bearer experience for Himself what all lost sinners will in judgement and condemnation"

That is not biblical at all. It is secular judicial philosophy and the conclusion that this philosophy is the only way God could have handled the issue of sin.

The soul that sins must die, God has stored up a bowl of wrath towards sinners, all in the Bible so who gets to appease that wrath and judgement and how on what basis?

 

[JonC]

What I gave here is the scripture response to just how and why the Holy Nature of God can be upheld while he justified wicked lost sinners like you and I once were

No. On that post you gave 100% philosophy.

You said in order for the father to be able to accept the sin bearing atonement of Jesus upon that Cross, Jesus would as the sin bearer experience for Himself what all lost sinners will in judgement and condemnation"

That is not biblical at all. It is secular judicial philosophy and the conclusion that this philosophy is the only way God could have handled the issue of sin.

 

[JonC]

The sinners who reject Jesus are being judged due to being law breakers before a Holy God, so indeed owe Him a payment

Not per Scripture.

Not per how YOU read and understand scripture

Wrong. It is not in the Bible at all. Otherwise you would have provided a quote from Scripture stating tha5 Adam died spiritually.


I read the words written in the Bible. I can disagree on interpretation but that disagreement is over words written

in the Bible.

You do not belueve the Bible, but the Bible with additions of men you follow.

The soul that sins must die, God has stored up a bowl of wrath towards sinners, all in the Bible so who gets to appease that wrath and judgement and how on what basis?

Now you are inventing Scripture.

You start by quoting a passage that states that sins cannot be transferred, then you snip a part about the Judgment of the wicked.

Scripture tells you exactly how we escape the wages of sin. We dont. And Scrioture tells you exactly how we escape the wrath to come where the wicked perish. We are transformed into the image of Christ, made new creations, refined as metal is refined, die to the flesh, die to sin, are born of the Spirit, get a new heart and spirit, God puts His Spirit in us, etc.


You are adding to God's Word because you do not believe God's Word as God delivered it to us. You want a salvation that is God's righteousness made through the Law so you reject God's righteousness apart from the Law.

BUT what if God's Word is perfect and complete?

 

[JesusFan]

Not per Scripture.


Wrong. It is not in the Bible at all. Otherwise you would have provided a quote from Scripture stating tha5 Adam died spiritually.


I read the words written in the Bible. I can disagree on interpretation but that disagreement is over words written

in the Bible.

You do not belueve the Bible, but the Bible with additions of men you follow.


Now you are inventing Scripture.

You start by quoting a passage that states that sins cannot be transferred, then you snip a part about the Judgment of the wicked.

Scripture tells you exactly how we escape the wages of sin. We dont. And Scrioture tells you exactly how we escape the wrath to come where the wicked perish. We are transformed into the image of Christ, made new creations, refined as metal is refined, die to the flesh, die to sin, are born of the Spirit, get a new heart and spirit, God puts His Spirit in us, etc.


You are adding to God's Word because you do not believe God's Word as God delivered it to us. You want a salvation that is God's righteousness made through the Law so you reject God's righteousness apart from the Law.

BUT what if God's Word is perfect and complete?

So once again, where does the wrath of God and judgement of God towards sinners actually go?

 

[percho]

On a now closed thread I stated that Jesus, the Son of God, suffered and died for our sins.

I can't recall how we got there, but somehow there was confusion about whether I believed God forsake Jesus to suffer and die for our sins.

It has come to my attention that there are a few ways that this is viewed.

Some believe this means God the Father separated from Jesus.
Some believe the Spirit left Jesus.
Some believe the Father and Son experienced a separation in their relationship.

I believe that Psalm 22 prophesied the cross.

This Psalm begins with the Servant crying out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
The Servant is suffering and crying out to God, trusting in God's faithfulness.
The Servant recounts how those of the past called out to God and God responded.
The Servant is suffering unjust

The way I see it.

Obviously, the Servant, the Christ felt he had been forsaken of God the Father. How had the Father forsaken him? Was it not by laying on him the iniquity of us all, that is making him who had no sin to be sin? And what does sin, when it is finished [ more words Christ said on the cross] being forth? James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Therefore I ask, was Christ forsaken unto death by the Father? What was the means by which he became unforsaken?

Acts 2:31 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Not forsaken in Hades. Are not forsaken in Matt and left in Acts not derived from the same word? καταλείπω (G2641)

Did the resurrection release him from being forsaken in death, in the realm of the dead?