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Authentic Interpretation

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not sure you have any idea what my first point was... This opinion is encouraged by how you've talked past my point.



??? Is this supposed to serve as an argument for your view? It's just a raw assertion without any reasoned justification. As such, it doesn't accomplish anything but offer contradiction, which is what squabbling children on the playground do. Really, in the flurry of back-and-forth you're having in this thread, I wonder if you even know what my interpretation of Acts 13:48 is.



Uh huh.



??? As Strong's points out, tasso (to arrange in order) is not the same as suntasso (to arrange together with). "Appointed" in Acts 14:38 is tasso, not suntasso, so you are mistaken in trying to assert that suntasso is the Greek word used in the verse and/or that tasso includes suntasso in its meaning (which it doesn't, as far as I'm aware).



See above.
1) Repeating you are addressing my behavior, not the topic.
2) My response was eaactly your response, every you said concerning my view more accurate reflects your view.
3) Uh huh
4) I quoted a Strong's tasso meaning not suntasso. Your claim the grammatical form of tasso changes its meaning is false. We determine which of the possible historical meanings of tasso best fits the particular usage by context.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can't support your view so you cut and run.

Van you seem to think that only your view is correct and when anyone points out an error you say they are attacking you or are off topic.

Have a good day Van.
When you stop addressing my supposed faults, and start addressing the topic, it will be a good day. You charged me with being Calvinistic, but when I did the same to you, you blather on with more personal disparagement.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
When you stop addressing my supposed faults, and start addressing the topic, it will be a good day. You charged me with being Calvinistic, but when I did the same to you, you blather on with more personal disparagement.

I have addressed Act 13:48 many times if you care to do a search.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have addressed Act 13:48 many times if you care to do a search.
As many as were ordained to eternal life
(hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi eis zōēn aiōnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassō, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word “ordain” is not the best translation here. “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

This of course mirrors my authentic interpretation.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
As many as were ordained to eternal life
(hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi eis zōēn aiōnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassō, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word “ordain” is not the best translation here. “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

This of course mirrors my authentic interpretation.

If you had just started with what some scholar had said then you would not have so many problems. You put yourself out there in the position of scholar which I doubt that you are. That is why I use the words of scholars in cases like this for example:

Had inclined themselves, ēsan tetagmenoi, may be either in the middle voice, as translated, or passive, had been inclined. In the middle voice the subject participates in the results of the action, as here (cf. Dana and Mantey, § 155). Note that it is said of the Jews, in Act_13:46, you yourselves are rejecting, apōtheisthe, in the middle voice; and of the believers in Act_13:48 : they inclined themselves, in the middle voice. And so we have here an antithesis between the Jews and believers. Predestinarians use this passage as a stronghold. Predestination is a Roman Catholic view brought to Protestantism: "This view began with Jerome who revised the old Latin rendering destinati or ordinati to praeordinati in order to make coming to faith and salvation the product of a predestinatory eternal decree. Calvin is the great exponent of the decretum absolutum…" (Lenski, Acts, p. 553).

Your choice of words makes you come across as the authority or as I said as if you support the calvinist view.
As many as were ordained to eternal life
(hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi eis zōēn aiōnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassō, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word “ordain” is not the best translation here. “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)

This of course mirrors my authentic interpretation.

If you had just started with what some scholar had said then you would not have so many problems. You put yourself out there in the position of scholar which I doubt that you are. That is why I use the words of scholars in cases like this for example:

Had inclined themselves, ēsan tetagmenoi, may be either in the middle voice, as translated, or passive, had been inclined. In the middle voice the subject participates in the results of the action, as here (cf. Dana and Mantey, § 155). Note that it is said of the Jews, in Act_13:46, you yourselves are rejecting, apōtheisthe, in the middle voice; and of the believers in Act_13:48 : they inclined themselves, in the middle voice. And so we have here an antithesis between the Jews and believers. Predestinarians use this passage as a stronghold. Predestination is a Roman Catholic view brought to Protestantism: "This view began with Jerome who revised the old Latin rendering destinati or ordinati to praeordinati in order to make coming to faith and salvation the product of a predestinatory eternal decree. Calvin is the great exponent of the decretum absolutum…" (Lenski, Acts, p. 553).

Your choice of words makes you come across as the authority or as I said as if you support the calvinist view.

Now of course you will say I am attacking you but that is because you cannot handle criticism of any kind.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you had just started with what some scholar had said then you would not have so many problems. You put yourself out there in the position of scholar which I doubt that you are. That is why I use the words of scholars in cases like this for example:

SNIP
This poster posts an expert who agrees with my interpretation, then says I claim to be a scholar. I kid you not...

When you study a verse, you review the conflicting commentary and arrive at you best understanding. He seems to deny we can study and share our understanding to edify others. Strange claim.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
This poster posts an expert who agrees with my interpretation, then says I claim to be a scholar. I kid you not...

When you study a verse, you review the conflicting commentary and arrive at you best understanding. He seems to deny we can study and share our understanding to edify others. Strange claim.

Are you a scholar Van?

Did I say at any time that I disagreed with your view, NO.

What I have said is that your posts lead one to conclude you are a calvinist or a legalist. I can not control what you write but I can comment on it.

But I was right when I said you would think you were being attacked again.

You do seem to have a persecution complex.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you a scholar Van?

Did I say at any time that I disagreed with your view, NO.

What I have said is that your posts lead one to conclude you are a calvinist or a legalist. I can not control what you write but I can comment on it.

But I was right when I said you would think you were being attacked again.

You do seem to have a persecution complex.
Why do you seem to believe only "scholars" can post their view of scripture. Sounds like a Calvinist or Legalist. Certainly not like a Baptist.
First he attacks me with utterly false charges, then when I protest, he says I have a persecution complex. It would seem his goal is to vilify me, rather than to understand Acts 13:48.

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement. Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Why do you seem to believe only "scholars" can post their view of scripture. Sounds like a Calvinist or Legalist. Certainly not like a Baptist.
First he attacks me with utterly false charges, then when I protest, he says I have a persecution complex. It would seem his goal is to vilify me, rather than to understand Acts 13:48.

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement. Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.

I understand Act 13:48 quite well but since I am not a biblical scholar why would I not use them?

As you just proved once again Van you think everything is about you. It's really not but that seem to be your default position.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Why do you seem to believe only "scholars" can post their view of scripture. Sounds like a Calvinist or Legalist. Certainly not like a Baptist.
First he attacks me with utterly false charges, then when I protest, he says I have a persecution complex. It would seem his goal is to vilify me, rather than to understand Acts 13:48.

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement. Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.
Sorry, did you really mean that (in your view) Calvinists only "scholars" can post their view of scripture? I am a Baptist and I believe Calvinist doctrines, but I certainly don't believe that someone has to be a scholar in order to post a view of Scripture. Perhaps you didn't mean that, in which case, apologies for misunderstanding.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
As for the OSAS view you need to account for all the verses that show otherwise.
Would you mind explaining what these verses are actually talking about then?

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Yes Christ can keep those that believe in Him. But what it does not say is that He will force them to stay which is what OSAS indicates.

That is why we have the warning passages. Which would be useless if the possibility of falling away were not true.

There are two main types: (1) a falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that claim to be “the real” Christian doctrine, and (2) a complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Your life and mine would disprove that idea.

But that is not what 1Jn 3:9 is speaking of. The Berean Bible actually does a good job of translating this text.

1Jn 3:9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. BSB

he cannot G3756 G1410 (G5736) sin G264 (G5721) NKJV +

The verb “to sin” (Gk hamartano G264) is a present active infinitive, implying continued or persistent action. John emphasizes that those who truly are God’s children cannot make sin their way of life because God’s life cannot exist in those who make a practice or habit of sinning
 

Ben1445

Active Member
Yes Christ can keep those that believe in Him. But what it does not say is that He will force them to stay which is what OSAS indicates.

That is why we have the warning passages. Which would be useless if the possibility of falling away were not true.

There are two main types: (1) a falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that claim to be “the real” Christian doctrine, and (2) a complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ.



Are you saying that Christians cannot sin? Your life and mine would disprove that idea.

But that is not what 1Jn 3:9 is speaking of. The Berean Bible actually does a good job of translating this text.

1Jn 3:9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. BSB

he cannot G3756 G1410 (G5736) sin G264 (G5721) NKJV +

The verb “to sin” (Gk hamartano G264) is a present active infinitive, implying continued or persistent action. John emphasizes that those who truly are God’s children cannot make sin their way of life because God’s life cannot exist in those who make a practice or habit of sinning
Anyone who reads 1John should be well aware that he is not advocating sinless perfection.
You have to acknowledge what the reason they cannot sin is.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
This is clearly talking about the seed of Christ. It means that when your sins were forgiven they were all forgiven and you stay saved because you are born of God. The power of the blood of Christ is such that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
In no way am I advocating that we frustrate the grace of God.
Shall we continue in sin that grace abound? God forbid!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I understand Act 13:48 quite well but since I am not a biblical scholar why would I not use them?

As you just proved once again Van you think everything is about you. It's really not but that seem to be your default position.
Yet another post vilifying me, rather than addressing Acts 13:48.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry, did you really mean that (in your view) Calvinists only "scholars" can post their view of scripture? I am a Baptist and I believe Calvinist doctrines, but I certainly don't believe that someone has to be a scholar in order to post a view of Scripture. Perhaps you didn't mean that, in which case, apologies for misunderstanding.
No, I did not say nor suggest only scholars can post their view, my view is we are all supposed to study and accurately handle the word of truth, and we are to share the results of our study (iron strengthens iron) and edify others.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The goal of bible study is to arrive at our most accurate understanding of a verse or passage, rather than simply accepting the views of others which differ and thus one or more are wrong. Consider Acts 13:48.

The fly in the buttermilk is the vague phrase "...all who had been appointed to eternal life believed."

The widely held bogus view is that this refers to "predestination" with God unilaterally choosing and thus appointing some to eternal life before creation. But none of that can be explicitly found in the text.

Who does the appointing? Does the verse say it is God? Nope

How is the appointing accomplished. Someone provides the direction (i.e. you must trust fully in Christ) and then those receiving (passively) the direction act (actively) to take and accept that direction. Thus they chose to believe.

So the first issue for study is the verb "appointed." (Each of these Greek words is translated as ordained, (by the KJV) along with tasso.

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of horizō (G3724) which means "set or determine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of proorizō (G4309) which means "predetermine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of prographo (G4270) which means to set forth beforehand?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of kataskeuazō (G2680) which means "to make ready?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of tithēmi (G5087) which means "to unilaterally appoint?" Nope

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement.
Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
The goal of bible study is to arrive at our most accurate understanding of a verse or passage, rather than simply accepting the views of others which differ and thus one or more are wrong. Consider Acts 13:48.

The fly in the buttermilk is the vague phrase "...all who had been appointed to eternal life believed."

The widely held bogus view is that this refers to "predestination" with God unilaterally choosing and thus appointing some to eternal life before creation. But none of that can be explicitly found in the text.

Who does the appointing? Does the verse say it is God? Nope

How is the appointing accomplished. Someone provides the direction (i.e. you must trust fully in Christ) and then those receiving (passively) the direction act (actively) to take and accept that direction. Thus they chose to believe.

So the first issue for study is the verb "appointed." (Each of these Greek words is translated as ordained, (by the KJV) along with tasso.

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of horizō (G3724) which means "set or determine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of proorizō (G4309) which means "predetermine?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of prographo (G4270) which means to set forth beforehand?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of kataskeuazō (G2680) which means "to make ready?" Nope

Is the verb "appointed" a translation of tithēmi (G5087) which means "to unilaterally appoint?" Nope

The verb is "tasso" which refers to an arrangement by mutual agreement.
Thus the authentic interpretation of Acts 13:48 is Paul gave direction to eternal life (He presented the gospel) and some of the Gentiles took his direction and believed.
In plain English, those who agreed with what Paul preached.
 
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