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Eternal Security

Ben1445

Active Member
In the interest of figuring out who believes what, the doctrine of Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, Once Saved Always Saved,… what ever you want to call it- I would like to know what your title and explanation for this subject is. If you are opposed to the notion please share the name of your alternative doctrine and explanation. (Heretic is not an acceptable title:))
I’m interested to know where we stand individually because the broader forum is too vague on the subject to give me an accurate idea of who I’m talking to.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The title I use is "everlasting life".

The doctrine means that whoever believes Jesus' words, whoever believes God has eternal life and has crossed over from death to life. Jesus is the Life.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
The title I use is "everlasting life".

The doctrine means that whoever believes Jesus' words, whoever believes God has eternal life and has crossed over from death to life. Jesus is the Life.
What I am really after is, can you lose your salvation? Can you fall away from everlasting life?
I didn’t see a specific thread for this topic so I figured I should move it out of the other.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
What I am really after is, can you lose your salvation? Can you fall away from everlasting life?
I didn’t see a specific thread for this topic so I figured I should move it out of the other.
If you could, it wouldn't be everlasting life.

When I see "saved" in the Bible I think of "saved from the wrath to come". Either we are saved from a future event or we are not.

Also, when we are saved Gid takes out our old heart and puts a new one in us. I have not seen a passage stating that this procedure is reversible.


From a philosophical point of view, if we believe something we do so until that thing is proven false. I do not think that belief based on the experience of being born of the Spirit, being made a new creation, dying to ourselves and being (in the process of) transformed into the image of Christ, having God's Spirit in us....that type of experiential belief.....if real can ever be proven false.

It'd be easier to change from believing fire can burn after being burnt to believing it can't.


If we are talking of a cognitive belief not experienced, then sure, one could change their minds.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
In the interest of figuring out who believes what, the doctrine of Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, Once Saved Always Saved,… what ever you want to call it- I would like to know what your title and explanation for this subject is. If you are opposed to the notion please share the name of your alternative doctrine and explanation. (Heretic is not an acceptable title:))
I’m interested to know where we stand individually because the broader forum is too vague on the subject to give me an accurate idea of who I’m talking to.

What do you think of this, Ben?

Ezek. 18:20-24

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
What do you think of this, Ben?

Ezek. 18:20-24

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
I’m gad I am not under the old covenant.
I’m grateful that all my past and future sins were paid for on the cross.

Jeremiah 31:27-37
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah
with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them,
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down,
and to destroy, and to afflict;
so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD: for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day,
and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night,
which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar;
The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD,
then the seed of Israel also shall cease
from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD;
If heaven above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Zechariah 9:9-11
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee:
he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass,
and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow shall be cut off:
and he shall speak peace unto the heathen:
and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant
I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

God is extremely merciful to men.

If you feel that you can lose your salvation, do you think that you can be saved again?
Heb. 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I’m gad I am not under the old covenant.
I’m grateful that all my past and future sins were paid for on the cross.

Jeremiah 31:27-37
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah
with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them,
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down,
and to destroy, and to afflict;
so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
In those days they shall say no more,
The fathers have eaten a sour grape,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity:
every man that eateth the sour grape,
his teeth shall be set on edge.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD: for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day,
and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night,
which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar;
The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD,
then the seed of Israel also shall cease
from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD;
If heaven above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Zechariah 9:9-11
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee:
he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass,
and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow shall be cut off:
and he shall speak peace unto the heathen:
and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant
I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

God is extremely merciful to men.

If you feel that you can lose your salvation, do you think that you can be saved again?
Heb. 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I don't feel a person can lose their salvation, I know a person can lose their salvation!

Paul made it clear that if a person transfers their faith from Christ to something else, that person cannot be renewed to repentance again.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
1Cor. 5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How does turning them over to Satan save their spirits? This sounds like purgatory.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
What do you think of this, Ben?

Ezek. 18:20-24

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
You have to be careful with that one (the point of the passage is that sins can't be transferred or inherited) :)
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
1Cor. 5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How does turning them over to Satan save their spirits? This sounds like purgatory.

The person Paul was referring to in this verse had committed incest or the sexual act with his step-mother, one of the two.

Undoubtedly this person did not repent of the sin. So Paul is telling the Church to stop praying for him, and turn him over to Satan.

In other words, don't have anything else to do with this person.

"That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," means there is hope through this action by the Church that the person will repent.

There are times when the sin of a person will result in and early physical death without repentance. This is one of those cases.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
In the interest of figuring out who believes what, the doctrine of Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, Once Saved Always Saved,… what ever you want to call it- I would like to know what your title and explanation for this subject is. If you are opposed to the notion please share the name of your alternative doctrine and explanation. (Heretic is not an acceptable title:))
I’m interested to know where we stand individually because the broader forum is too vague on the subject to give me an accurate idea of who I’m talking to.
Eternal Security for the one really saved, based upon the promises of Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit Themselves
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The title I use is "everlasting life".

The doctrine means that whoever believes Jesus' words, whoever believes God has eternal life and has crossed over from death to life. Jesus is the Life.
Once received eternal life from God, is it forever theirs then?
 

Ben1445

Active Member
The person Paul was referring to in this verse had committed incest or the sexual act with his step-mother, one of the two.

Undoubtedly this person did not repent of the sin. So Paul is telling the Church to stop praying for him, and turn him over to Satan.

In other words, don't have anything else to do with this person.

"That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," means there is hope through this action by the Church that the person will repent.

There are times when the sin of a person will result in and early physical death without repentance. This is one of those cases.
But it is impossible to renew them to repentance Heb. 6
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
But it is impossible to renew them to repentance Heb. 6

They have committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

When their faith in Christ left them, so did the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It will not be forgiven, and they cannot be renewed to repentance, they are eternally separated from God.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I don't feel a person can lose their salvation, I know a person can lose their salvation!

Paul made it clear that if a person transfers their faith from Christ to something else, that person cannot be renewed to repentance again.
A sheep will never go back to being a goat, but one can stray far enough away that they might appear to be such again, as in the Prodigal Son, or else force the Lord to even kill them off to preserve them
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
A sheep will never go back to being a goat, but one can stray far enough away that they might appear to be such again, as in the Prodigal Son, or else force the Lord to even kill them off to preserve them

OK, JesusFan, you just keep believing that! But at the same time you better do as Paul told us to do, "Examine yourselves whether you are in the faith."

If you don't do this on a regular basis, you may find yourself in very serious trouble when you meet Him.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
They have committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

When their faith in Christ left them, so did the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It will not be forgiven, and they cannot be renewed to repentance, they are eternally separated from God.
So what is the point of what Paul said in 1 Cor. 5?
 
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